[00:00:18] Speaker A: Welcome to Uptown Chats, a podcast where we share stories about environmental justice by and for everyday people. I'm your co host, Lonnie.
[00:00:24] Speaker B: And I'm your other co host, Jaron.
[00:00:26] Speaker A: And today we have a special episode for you. It's our first official Uptown Chats book club.
[00:00:33] Speaker B: That's right, Lonnie. And today we're joined by Dr. Diana Hernandez, co author of a new book titled the People's struggle for energy.
[00:00:44] Speaker A: Dr. Hernandez is Associate professor at the Columbia University Melman School of Public Health and has been a longtime supporter of We Act. Her book does a deep dive into energy burden and energy insecurity here in the US which is at the heart of several we act campaigns, including our work on the New York Heat act, the Home Energy Assistance Program, or heap, among others.
[00:01:06] Speaker B: That's right. And we're super excited to have Dr. Hernandez on to talk about the new book and to share some insights from her research and work over the years on this topic.
[00:01:15] Speaker A: But before we get to that, Jaron, can you share WEAC's mission?
[00:01:19] Speaker B: I sure can. We ACT's mission is to build healthy communities by ensuring that people of color and or low income residents participate meaningfully in the creation of sound and fair environmental health and protection policies and practices.
[00:01:31] Speaker A: Thank you. Because we had such a great interview with Dr. Hernandez, we're gonna jump right in, but quickly. I will say that anyone who has never heard the terms energy burden or energy insecurity, don't worry, we'll be unpacking those terms with Dr. Hernandez.
[00:01:46] Speaker B: And because our interview with Dr. Hernandez was so great, we couldn't fit it all into one episode. So this will actually be part one of our conversation and we'll pick up where we left off in our next episode.
[00:01:58] Speaker A: I will also say, I promise we're going to get to the interview. You don't have to read the book to enjoy this episode. Our conversation with Dr. Hernandez will give you plenty to think about, but we'll make sure to include a link to learn more about the book in the show notes in case our conversation piques your interest.
[00:02:12] Speaker B: With that, we'll. Let's go ahead and jump into our interview.
Well, thank you so much for joining us, Diana. We're super happy to have you on the podcast. Lonnie and I both had a lot of fun reading your book, and I think between the two of us, we probably have way more notes than we could go through in our time together. So we're gonna, we're gonna make the most of the time that we do Have. And before we get into some of the fun stuff, some of the concepts and points that you make in the book, we want to give you a chance to just quickly introduce yourself and just tell us a little bit about your role and your background.
[00:02:52] Speaker C: Sure.
I am Diana Hernandez. I am on faculty at the School of Public Health, an associate professor in the Department of Sociomedical Sciences, where I've been since 2009.
I'm a tenured faculty person and I teach different classes.
One is Qualitative Research Methods, another Leadership in Public Health. And then more recently I designed and co teach or co design and co teach a class called Energy Equity in the Built Environment with Lynette Whitter, who is also on faculty and she is an architect. And so that's a really kind of interesting aspect of my teaching. Most of my research is on energy and housing as determinants of health. I've been one of the early researchers in this kind of space around energy insecurity, energy burden, energy justice in the U.S.
and then I also, as of about two years ago, took on a new role as the co director of the Energy Opportunity labor and that sits in the center on Global Energy Policy in the School of International and Public Affairs. And there we actually are focusing on translating research. So my team I failed to mention, but I also lead, I founded, I'm the founding principal investigator of the Energy Equity, Housing and Health program at the Mailman School of Public Health. And there we just run a bunch of different empirical studies. But on the Energy Opportunity Lab side, we actually do translational work. So that's more on like working with cities, working on issues around rates, for instance.
All of the kind of what we think are the applications of the knowledge in different domains is part of what we do at the lab. So that's a long winded, you know, response, not a simple one. I do want to say though that I'm taking, I'm doing this podcast from my home in the Bronx.
And so I always think that like in addition to talking about all of the like professional roles that, you know, my identity and like my upbringing and my really deep roots in the Bronx are so important because it really shaped my interest and it really shapes my hopes for doing work around, you know, like justice oriented and equity based work.
Because these are my people, my neighbors, you know, all of the labels in environmental justice community, a disadvantaged community, low income, marginalized, like that's my family, it's my neighbors, it's my people, it's my community. And while in many ways I Sometimes get frustrated with some of those labels at the same time. Like, the lived reality is that it is very different when poverty and life chances and poor health and all of those things are kind of negatively concentrated or where people don't have the opportunities to be their full and best selves because of the structures, both physical, environmental, social, economic, that exist. And so to me, that's such an important part of who I am that I always like to lead with that as much as I like to lead with the fact that I'm a trained sociologist and a badass academic.
[00:06:30] Speaker A: I love that. And it seems like even with doing all of that that you're doing, you also managed to write a book, which is what we're here to talk about. And a lot of what you just said about your identity and where you're coming from and your neighbors and the people that you're around is reflected in your book, which is called the People's Struggle for Energy. So can you a little bit about how this book came about and you know, why write this, given all the work that you've been doing in the academic level? And why now? Why write this book now?
[00:07:03] Speaker C: Well, so powerless. The book really stems from a long history of doing this work.
And as a public health researcher, a lot of like what's referenced in the book is health related medical terminology and concepts. And that's very intentional. We don't think about energy from a treatment perspective or the idea of diagnosing a social problem. But that's really fundamentally, I'm borrowing a lot from these public health and medicine concepts and constructs because I learned about energy insecurity in people's homes. I did my dissertation research and I guess it was like the mid 2000s, so before the recession or as it was kind of unfolding, I guess like 2006 to 2008. And basically I was like living, sitting in people's living rooms, doing these home based interviews, realizing like there is something going on with how people are living.
And the academic literature characterizes this in terms of lead and crowding, asbestos windows, smoking, all these things. But like what I was hearing and seeing were actually people that were like talking about being too cold in their homes. Like they could see their breath, right? Like this is a was a Boston community.
And I had done 72 interviews in one community at that point. And again and again I was like hearing about people being disconnected, about people like having bills that were just exceedingly high relative to their incomes.
And the funny thing is that like I wrote up this whole dissertation On a totally different topic, but learned about this thing and sat with it for so long.
And I remember I had like over 100 pages of essentially like quotes and findings that were energy related. And I wrote a paper and that paper was published in 2016.
So, you know, I guess some people call themselves slow readers, but I think I'm a slow writer or like, you know, because I've also been very careful. I've also, I get a. I get rejected a lot in the academic process and we won't talk about all that. But anyway, so this really kind of emerged from like people stories and like this kind of what I, you know, describe in the book as like an incidental finding, right? Like looking for something but finding something else.
The book itself was a follow up. Was this just in one community?
Like, how do I talk to people all around the country to ask, how are you experiencing these energy related hardships? Like, I've conceptualized the issue as, you know, having an economic component, having a housing or physical component, and then having a coping or adaptive behavioral component. But does that stand when you look at it in other places? Does it like change? What, how does it morph?
And this book basically started when I was a fellow at the JPB Environmental Health Fellowship, which was a Harvard based fellowship, even though we were all like in our own respective institutions. And they gave me money and basically invested in me. And I come up with a dream project, and this was a dream project where I traveled to, let's see if I can remember all of them. Arizona, Detroit, Alabama, Tennessee, Montana, New York, the Bronx.
I always forget them, but. And I can't really sell it say them, but. And then Philadelphia, Puerto Rico, California, and of course I'm missing one. But anyway, long story short, 100 interviews all around the country. 100 plus, because I did 100 interviews with impacted community members and then more interviews with key informants. So like people that were at energy assistance offices, et cetera, and then fielded an original survey, national survey, and then used publicly available data. And so the project itself took a long time because I traveled to all of these places, did the interviews myself, then worked on a technique which is not the typical way that we report qualitative research.
Usually it's like a theme and then some illustrative quote. What I opted to do was to story people's experiences.
And that took a little bit more time because then you have to like find context. And it may, you know, I was then looking up like on Zillow and like other things to like just try and like contextualize these experiences. And for me, I think, and I'd be curious to hear how you all receive the stories. But like, for me, writing it out that way was about providing adequate context to the tidbits that people shared or the thing that I thought was like an important takeaway from a person's experience that needed to be situated in a more robust way. It couldn't necessarily just be like, like deconstructed and compartmentalized in the typical way that academics write their work.
[00:12:29] Speaker B: Absolutely. I can tell all the work that you put in to those interviews and really wanting to understand people's stories. That actually is probably the part of the book that I enjoyed the most. Obviously, you know, I do have a public health background. So I was reading this, I was like, oh wow, it's been a couple of years. This is a nice refresher, you know, jumping back into the research and the structure, like how some of the more academic pieces are framed. But what really jumped out to me is all of the care and attention that went into telling people's stories in each of the chapters to really get across the point of what you're trying to, to make about the different dimensions of energy burden and energy insecurity, but really bring it home and make it feel real.
[00:13:08] Speaker A: And it's. And one of the things that was, I guess, surprising for me is because when we talk about energy often in this space, it's usually super technical and it's super disconnected. Not just, you know, echo a theme in your book about disconnection, but disconnected from just the real world. And so we think about it in terms of how are we producing energy, how are we transmitting it?
You know, where is it going, Is it clean energy, is it renewable, is it not? Like we kind of think of that space so much, but when you, when you add that narrative element like Jaron talked about, like there's so many people who struggle with just paying their energy bill. This is something that you need. Right. It's not a, it's not a necessity, it's not a luxury to have electricity or heat or even, you know, to Weak's thought processes, cooling as well. Right. You need to have access to these things to live a productive life. And so I just thought it was great. The narrative aspect of it is always what gets me and I love all the socio political elements to it as well. When you kind of combine all of these things at once and you're thinking of it in a very unique, different way. And also the public health angle is something I don't think is talked about much at all in the energy space when we're talking about energy burdens.
[00:14:18] Speaker C: Yeah, there's so many different pieces that both of you have kind of mentioned.
I'll just say that on the health side, for instance, one of the things that we learned in doing this work is that health really comes up in, on the, on two sides of the equation. Right. We in public health, we often think about health outcomes that stem from some exposure.
And we do see like energy insecurity as an exposure definitely impacts ability, like food security, for instance, in households, ability to sleep. Well, you know, it impacts respiratory health, mental health, the ability to use electronic medical devices. Right. So like we actually ask very specifically, like, do energy problems impact health in these particular ways?
And found that there were significant results across the board, especially for households that have compounded exposures. So economic and physical exposures, or what we call high effort coping, when it's layered, they're more likely to experience these adverse health outcomes. Now, on the predictive side, that health actually is also an independent variable and that people that have chronic illness or medical vulnerability are more predisposed to energy insecurity. And partly, you know, the rationale is like, well, why would that be? Like people that have cardiovascular disease, high blood pressure, cancer, things like that, right? Well, it makes sense because basically these are people that might need energy. They're using energy they can't withstand, stand extreme, extremely high temperatures indoors. They can't do the kind of coping around, let's say under consumption and things like that. And so they face higher utility bills as an example of then that relationship between vulnerability and like a higher propensity for exposure.
And that to me was like an important insight and I think contribution to public health because we often don't think about, I mean, food insecurity to me is the sister concept of energy insecurity. But we don't really think about people that are, that have chronic illness as being more predisposed to food insecurity. Right. But this is an interesting finding from, from the book. And then the other piece is like, well, you know, how do we think about the chronic aspects of this? Like when people are experiencing aspects of energy insecurity that they can't escape. Escape. And you know, it is a chronic exposure monthly, like month in, month out, most of the year, dealing with these kinds of issues or people that experience it more acutely because there's some kind of external trigger or shock, something that kind of like my move, a household that is kind of at risk into that experience that could be a job loss, the loss of a relationship or a loved one, like something that kind of basically is a jolt and moves people that are presenting with some risk into this.
So the, you know, using the methods of public health, in terms of like prevalence in the population, how do you measure the prevalence of energy insecurity in a population?
We basically condition that on experiencing an economic issue. So, so like you have a bill that you can't pay, you've fallen behind, you have debt, you have a disconnection notice, like conditioned on that plus any of the coping or the physical aspects of energy insecurity, which is like lacking in AC and not using it because of the cost, experiencing thermal discomfort, et cetera. So like on those like, indicators, we basically found that 10% of the US population experiences energy insecurity because it's stacked, right? So it's like the economic plus and then that 40% of the US population actually doesn't rise to the level of having energy insecurity because of the economic condition not being met. But they have these other things going on, right? So like, if they lose their job, they could very easily be energy insecure. And you know, I think that that's an important thing because it means that one in two households in the US could relate to this issue.
And that means that like, this is not so abstract, it's not so far away. It's not about like the technologies and the like supply side of the conversation when it comes to energy. It's much more real and it's much more experiential and that the experience of something is really what is captured in this book and is validated. Right? And I remember that being very like I was in my early 20s, I was like very impressionable when I saw this and I took it to heart and I believed it and I wanted to take it very seriously and treat it with the care that it needed for it to be an academic issue. And I think this book is kind of like, okay, well, you know, how do you really explain it? Like, give yourself the space and the time and the ability to kind of like really cut it up in these different ways and share that story and talk about the personal impacts. And I'm happy to kind of get into like some those stories if you want. But Lonnie, you did say something about putting this in context.
And in one of the later chapters we talk about the structural determinants of energy insecurity.
And that to me, again is important.
Jen and I, Jennifer Laird, who's A professor at Lehman cuny, a social demographer, a good friend. We'd written another paper together and just kind of have a mutual interest in this area.
We would be failing our Sociology 101 students and the field if we weren't talking about how this is embedded in the social economic structures that exist, the political structures that determine who and which populations are disproportionately impacted by energy insecurity and which ones are shielded from this experience. And because the inequalities are so patterned, you have to look at it from this kind of more structural lens. Otherwise you miss the mark in terms of situating the vulnerability. Right. Because the vulnerability is only relative to some kind of structures that are creating that vulnerability and that the powerlessness. Right. Powerless is really a relational concept. It is about something in relation to another. Right. Power in relation to exploitation, vulnerability in relation to excesses. And that's basically what we're seeing play out societally. And I think what the stories and the data really suggest are at play when it comes to explaining energy insecurity.
[00:21:33] Speaker B: In the U.S.
i think that maybe I'll use this as a segue to start to dive into some. One of the other things that Lonnie and I had pointed out, which as a part of energy burden and energy insecurity, and one of the big things that you talk about in the book that stood out to both Lanya and I is the racial and wealth disparities that, that you kind of highlight, which, you know, is at the core of so much of the work that we act does and obviously permeates lots of other issue areas, but are really on display when we talk about energy insecurity. So just wanted to give you space to talk a little bit more about that. And also just, you know, continuing to unpack, you know, these terms of energy burden and energy insecurity as. As you've kind of continued to do and talk about maybe some of the structural pieces there.
[00:22:17] Speaker C: Sure, yeah. Look, I think getting. Getting the terms right is sets us up for getting the solution sets to be more robust and reflective of the core issues.
And to the extent that like, energy burden is just defined as how much of a household's income is allocated to utility expenses, you miss so much. You miss so much of the context of the housing environment, but also of competing expenses.
And, you know, one of the things that we also show in the book is that households with children are much more likely to experience energy insecurity than are the elderly. And that is a little bit of a surprising Finding potentially for some people that might be thinking about this more as like from the headlines. Right. The book actually opens up with like a bunch of different stories that were like in the news around the time when this book and the data was being collected. And these are all elderly people. And in some ways like there is a difference between vulnerability and susceptibility.
Vulnerability is really about like who is kind of more likely to experience something.
Susceptibility is who's likely to be experiencing the worst outcomes when exposed. At least that's how I think about it. Right. And so the elderly definitely are much more susceptible to the worst outcomes when they are exposed to energy insecurity, but for different reasons. Like around where they are in the life course that they are older, probably more economically situated, have some something like a guaranteed income with Social Security might have paid off their homes if they're owners or you know, if they're in a more rent stabilized type of situation. Like there's a little bit more stability in older age but you have many more competing expenses when you're a parent, especially of young children.
This book opens up. You know, we often think about the heat or eat dilemma, but this book is situated in Alicia's story. And Alicia is a mom.
She has multiple children.
She shows up to the energy assistance office with a disconnection notice in hand, as most people do. Because the way that energy assistance works in this country is that it is crisis oriented, which I think we unpack quite a bit now. We won't talk about the crisis. Well, we will, I think eventually that LIHEAPA and the energy assistance and like programs that are facing right now in this current political moment. But she talks about not being able to replace her child's broken shoes, right. And like having to patch those up. And you know, I became a mom in the process of writing this book and there is something to be said about those that sacrifice the self sacrifice that you could justify, but it's a lot harder to do that when you're the provider. That there's all this parental guilt that's associated with like not being able to adequately provide for your family and like what that feels like, you know, so energy burden. Getting back to like the question to me just. And I look, I was one of the first people to write about energy burden. I'm not necessarily like. But I think that like basically ideas have to evolve and they also have to be more robust. Right. This is a big problem and part of the reason why it's been ignored I think is that people have tried to reduce it to one thing or that it's like so many different pieces. It's energy efficient inefficiencies and housing deficiencies. On the one hand it's that, you know, people have unaffordable bills. But the reasons why they're unaffordable isn't just about that ratio. Like sometimes it's the, the, all of the different living expenses that people have, especially in high cost cities like New York City and other places like where that, you know, like the rent eats first and when it does, there's very little else. And so you might be falling behind and experiencing difficulty paying your utility bills. Not necessarily because from an energy burden perspective you are meeting the mark or not meeting that 6% golden line, but because there's other things that matter in terms of like, or that you're, that you never get to that place because you're under consuming energy so much that you, you don't even know what it is to experience comfort at home because everything is so hot or it's so cold, or you don't have hot running hot water because you're turning off the hot water heater as many of the people, or you don't even have running water. Right. Like there are aspects of this that to me are beyond what energy burden can capture and where do they sit when they're actually all interconnected.
And with climate change you have this variable situation that also is compromising people's access to energy by way of power outages.
And when that's the case, then that's not necessarily about socioeconomic position except for when we're thinking about the recovery of, you know, like rebounding from power outages. And I wanted to have an inclusive enough concept and construct that allowed us to think about entry and exit from energy insecurity, but also that it is not just one dimensional, it's multidimensional. And if we appreciate it and define it, contextualize it, conceptualize it and measure it as such, then it actually opens up this whole possibility of solutions that haven't necessarily all been again grouped together.
And the necessity of when you have a complex problem to also have an equally comprehensive set of solutions.
Those things don't coincide if you're narrowly defining the issue.
[00:28:46] Speaker A: Yeah, one thing when you were saying that when you were talking, I was thinking about one thing I wanted to ask was when you were having these conversations with people across the country and you're hearing the same things, what was the sense of their understanding of the concept of energy burden or insecurity because I think oftentimes, culturally there's a lot of shame around not being able to pay your bills.
We internalize that as our fault. And your book exposes there's a whole lot of other things going on and it's definitely not your fault right there. You know, whether it be not being paid a living wage, having these issues with inefficiencies in your housing, access to all of these other different things. And I just wonder, was there an understanding of energy burden insecurity when you were talking to folks?
[00:29:31] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, look, I think most people, regular, everyday people are not using this terminology. Like, let's be real, there is like, you know, my light bill, they're not talking about, you know, like, it's just, you know, and I, and I, for me again, because, you know, I kind of opened up with the idea that like, you know, these are my, my people. And you know, the truth is that when I did my initial study like that it was eye opening to me because I was like, folks are just like so familiar, like, you know, different context because, you know, I grew up in a different situation, a different state or whatever. But like, these are my people. Like I totally understand it and like, you know, that translational aspect of like, you know, speaking common parlance and language and you know, then also like being an academic, like I've always been, you know, straddling those worlds.
And so no, people do not talk about energy insecurity.
I mean, academics don't even really talk about it, like in those terms. I think energy burden has taken up a little bit more and that's part of, because it's easier to measure.
But it didn't take much for people to like understand that they were being cut off from their utilities because of non payment. It didn't take much for them to talk about their homes being uncomfortable. Maybe not using like thermal discomfort as the kind of more academic way that we describe it, but definitely like the one story from the lady in the Bronx where, you know, she talks about her granddaughter shivering as she was visiting with her. Right. And like the shame, the shame there too. Right. But like also the whole process that she went through to make sure she had the space heater. She was close enough. She occupied just the room that was adjacent to the kitchen so that she could get the off heating from the stove. And like the way that people describe their living situations. Now mind you, some of the interviews that were done for this book were in people's homes. Like in Alabama. I had done interviews in people's homes in Puerto Rico and some of the other places. Other places it was just in an institutional setting, like in an energy assistance office.
And there they were still sharing their stories with vivid, with a certain kind of vivid description that put me in a position where I can imagine what their lives were like. And then that's translated onto the page in terms of the writing.
[00:32:00] Speaker B: I'm not sure if you need any other follow ups to that, Lonnie, if that, if that answered your question.
[00:32:03] Speaker A: No, it did. And I was just, you know, it's, it's the.
I can't think of the academic term, but this idea of like, when resilience becomes toxic. Like when it's like when. Well, you shouldn't. Like that sounds resilient. Space heater being closer to the kitchen because you get the off heat. That's like survival in a way that understanding. And it's, it's sad when you hear those stories because it's like, because the world still goes on and you still have to live your life, but so you have to make these adjustments that you shouldn't have to make these. And we, yeah, we can get a deal for that. But. Yes.
[00:32:33] Speaker C: Yeah, well, yeah, so I mean, love that. And you know, basically the. So people talk about high effort coping. Arlene Geronimus, who's on faculty at the University of Michigan, and I was actually on, on the fellowship with her as I was starting the writing on this book at the Russell Sage Foundation. She talks about weathering, right. Like this idea that, like there's this kind of compounding with compounding issues like this erosion of health and lifespan and health span and all that stuff that happens for households again, like individuals, families that are so exposed. Relentless. So relentlessly exposed. Right. And I think when I think about resilience, I think about clearly our, our, our communities are like you said, they're resilient to a fault almost, right? Like, they're so resilient.
I was giving a talk the other day and this woman said, you know, like, it's become a way of life in some ways. Actually there's one of the ladies in the book also says, says the same thing that you're like. It just becomes so ingrained in many ways and also intergenerationally transferred because there's this notion of like, this is how we live, right? Notwithstanding, of course, like, the health impacts and like the ability to like, just relax, rest, enjoy your home. Like, you know, like there's something just so special sacred about home.
And yet what this book kind of really Is it kind of takes people behind the door. Like what is happening behind closed doors? How are people actually living? And a lot of times it's a real struggle.
But getting back to this notion of reserves of resilience, many years ago actually with we act, David Chang, when he was still there, and Dave Evans, who is now still on the board, we did this study in public housing about post Sandy and how people were getting by in high rise buildings in the aftermath of Sandy, no elevators, etc. And what really came for me in that work, and then we wrote about it, was this idea of the resilience reserve.
If you think about resilience, you have to have sufficient deposits in your resilience reserve to actually be able to withdraw in times of crisis. Right. What we actually are finding in like this work, the idea that people are on the brink of a household level energy crisis at any given point and repeatedly throughout a year, needing to seek out all kinds of help from their family, from their friends, from organizations, from, you know, like keeping homes at an uncomfortable and unhealthy temperature, doing all of this work, never fully being able to deposit into their resilience reserves. So what happens when you have a Hurricane Maria in Puerto Rico? How do people recover and rebound from that? Like those are parts of like the story that are also important. Because this idea that people could be toxically resilient is partly about also saying that how could they possibly be prepared as our climate is shifting so much to the point where we have new, new and higher levels, you know, like rising temperatures year in, year out, like reaching kind of new highs.
And our communities, not because they're not master survivalists, I think our people just know how to survive under less than ideal circumstances.
But that's also like, that's so unfair. I feel like that's at the root of what makes this a justice issue, is that they shouldn't have to.
That's just to me the biggest insult of something like energy insecurity. And when you think about more adequately and appropriately blaming parties, holding them accountable, like who is accountable for these realities and that who varies a lot. But it definitely, and you know, it's called out in the last chapter, but it's the landlords, it's the utility companies, it's the policy makers and elected officials that do very little. Like this is the kind of, like that's the action. But we can't. This book does the naming.
We could talk about the blaming on the action front and then the claim like, what do we want? What, what comes out of this and what I hope comes out of this for like the long term is that people get to live with more health, they get to live with more comfort, they get to live with more dignity, they get to live with security. That redefines resilience.
And like that combination of things to me is like the strong start of a good life, right? The start of life opportunities that get people to be like whoever it is that they really want to be when they grow up.
[00:37:53] Speaker B: Thanks for listening. Make sure to stay tuned for the second part of our interview with Dr. Hernandez coming out on August 11th.
[00:38:00] Speaker A: If you like this episode, make sure to rate and review the show on whatever platform you listen on. If you have thoughts about the show, we encourage you to reach out to us with your thoughts and
[email protected] check.
[00:38:12] Speaker B: Out we act on Facebook at weact4ej that's W E a C T F O R E j on Instagram, bluesky and YouTube act4ej that's W E A C T number 4ej and check out our website, weact.org for more information about environmental justice.
[00:38:32] Speaker A: Until next time.
[00:38:32] Speaker B: Next time.
[00:38:34] Speaker A: Bye.
