[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:18] Speaker B: Welcome to Uptown Chats, a podcast where we share stories about environmental justice by and for everyday people. I'm your co host, Jaron.
[00:00:25] Speaker C: And I'm your other co host, Lonnie.
[00:00:27] Speaker B: And today we're continuing our conversation with Dr. Diana Hernandez, Co author of a new book titled the People's Struggle for Energy.
[00:00:36] Speaker C: This is the second part of our very first Uptown Chats book club. So if you have not had a chance to listen to the first part, I recommend you go give that a listen.
[00:00:43] Speaker B: That's right. We're super excited to jump back into our conversation with Dr. Hernandez to learn more about the new book and to hear how we can turn those insights into from the book into action.
[00:00:53] Speaker C: But before we get into that, Jaron, can you share WEAC's mission?
[00:00:57] Speaker B: I sure can. WEAC's mission is to build healthy communities by ensuring that people of color and or low income residents participate meaningfully in the creation of sound and fair environmental health and protection policies and practices.
[00:01:09] Speaker C: Thank you. Because we had such a great interview with Dr. Hernandez, we're going to jump right in, but quickly. We want to remind folks of two terms we discussed pretty extensively with her in our previous interview. And those two terms are energy burden and energy insecurity.
[00:01:25] Speaker B: Yeah, energy burden is defined as the proportion of a household's income spent on energy costs. For example, low income households in the US spend up to three times more of their income on energy than non poor households. And black and Latino households also spend 20 to 40% more than than those of white households.
[00:01:46] Speaker C: Now, energy insecurity is a little bit more complex. In our conversation with Dr. Hernandez, we discussed the different dimensions of energy insecurity. And those include economic, physical and coping. And so basically at one time someone's experiencing a financial state, a housing condition and situation that the families have to manage.
[00:02:07] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a lot more to impact this. So if you want to learn more about that term in particular, definitely check out that conversation from our first interview with Dr. Hernandez. We get into it in depth. There's lots for you to unpack there.
I will also say that you do not have to read this book to enjoy the episode. Our conversation with Dr. Hernandez will give you plenty to think about.
Although we will say the book was pretty good. So if you want to check it out, we definitely recommend it that Bonnie and I both read it. But we'll make sure to include a link to learn more about the book in the show notes in case you are interested. In case the conversation piques your interest.
[00:02:42] Speaker C: All right, I'M excited. Let's go ahead. Let's jump into the interview.
[00:02:45] Speaker B: Let's go.
As you mentioned, we've kind of been like roughly following the arc of the book and some of the things that we've been talking about. And one of the last pieces of the book, and this is always where we try to end our conversations for the podcast, is thinking about actions and solutions and what do we do about this thing that we've kind of just spent some time talking about and elaborating on their problem. And so just want to give you some space to talk a little bit about some of those insights that you have about making the book actionable, thinking about some of the actions or solutions at different levels, you know, government, private sector, grassroots organizations, individuals, utility, customers. And I think we alluded to some of the recommendations for improving, you know, programs like LIHEAP and weatherization assistance program, some of what you talk about in the book. So I'm just going to kind of open it up there. There's lots of things that you could talk about, whatever you feel like is most relevant or just top of mind to just talk about some of those, those actions and solutions.
[00:03:46] Speaker A: Yeah. So this has been such a fun conversation. I would of course love to do it again. So like, you know, let's, let's get that on the calendar. And, and let me just say that, you know, and I, and I tell my students this and it's important like, you know, we all stand in our own like, responsibilities and capabilities and, and as an academic, as a researcher, as like, you know, like someone with the specific skill sets that I have, my co author, Jen, have, like, we, I think kind of laid a really good foundation for like a deep understanding. And I think that being an academic and knowledge production alone was never enough for me. And that's partly the reason why I moved from sociology to public health is much more up ivory tower.
And we land in this place around a spark, the sparked action framework. And let me just give you the visual for why I think that's important. And it's an important kind of like new direction for how do you think about solutions.
So the US Energy safety net is really meant to catch people when they're falling.
It is crisis intervention.
It is meant to like, basically, you know, you have a disconnection notice. You, you know, have these chronic issues in terms of like or in terms of meeting your energy needs. So, you know, the official definition of energy insecurity is the inability to adequately meet household energy needs, which I didn't Even talk about before. But you know, like, that's an important context.
And there's been. There are two main programs that make up the US Energy safety net. That's the Low Income Home Energy Assistance Program and the Weatherization Assistance Program. LIHEAP is the first one is mostly a bill assistance.
So it helps people to offset their utilities, usually by about half of their overall annual cost. But that depends on which state you are, how well funded it is. Like how many heating and cooling degree days are not like. The formula is very complicated, very dated. The programs, both of these programs actually started following the 1970s oil crisis. So they were designed in haste. They were not designed with comprehensive deep understanding of the issue. They were designed to be like crisis response. And that crisis and policy, it has kind of stayed on 40 plus years.
Now.
The. That I think is the equivalent of. So the safety net is one like analogy and not. Or, you know, metaphor. Not to like mix the metaphors, but I will, like. I remember in the process of writing this book, walking from Yankee Stadium to my house and like I came across. It was raining and it was pouring, there was a whole storm. And I saw like a discarded umbrella.
And I said, wow, like, I don't have an umbrella. Wouldn't it be nice to have an umbrella? Like in this moment, like, I have a date, you know, like, I'm in the middle of this storm, I gotta get home. I'm not too far, but I'm not there yet. And that that umbrella was useless. And it was not only useless to me, it was clearly useless to the original owner, you know. And I do feel like the safety net that we have right now is really inadequate. It was never designed to be so long standing. It was never really designed to provide that level of coverage and that sturdy support that an umbrella that is like well designed, big enough, like, whatever. I could have walked to my house with no problem, with no concern, but I didn't have an umbrella. And the one that I did see that was discarded was useless. And not to, you know, like, totally knock the importance of liheap because right now, like, it may not exist in the. In the near term, but I think that we should never be satisfied with the idea that preserving liheap is the only answer.
Because only 17% of all households that are eligible for liheap even receive it. Which means that these are the neediest households, the most vulnerable, the ones that are. That have reached a point of crisis. And we're not doing our job from a public health perspective. And we're Only doing the emergency room equivalent of, you know, energy safety nets, because we're only helping people that are, like, have an energy emergency.
The Spark Action Framework is meant to be more comprehensive, provide that coverage, give people, like, the ability to get from point A to point B with confidence and the assurance of, like, they are not necessarily falling and something is catching them when they're falling, but that they can walk on solid ground in their power and like, in their purpose to get from where they are to where they need to be. Right. And I really strongly believe that, you know, and I, and I say that as someone who was the recipient of Section 8 housing vouchers as a kid, Head Start, free lunches, like all of those, like, investments, social investments that allowed me to be who I am, Tap and pell, like all of these things I feel like were important to lift me and my family out of the circumstances that we were in. But we can't be shiesty with those services and with the intention of helping people to really lift them up. Right.
So the Spark Action Framework is really based in, you know, I think it's. What is it? Eight points, but it's an acronym. So sparks, every one of those letters stands for something.
The first is survey screening and public health surveillance.
Really getting our data straight.
As a researcher, to me that's an important element because a big part of how this continues to unfold is that we don't have access to the data to really critically analyze what is actually happening and track it repeatedly. And over time, the existing data sources are. They get old really fast. They're not updated regularly, they're not tracked regularly, and. Or the data is available, but it is in.
There's no public access to it. So like utility data, for instance. And then there's participation in the energy decision making.
How do we elevate energy democracy? How do we actually ensure that, you know, energy decision making, especially with regulated utilities and these regulatory bodies that are meant to actually be in the public's interest, we need much more public participation for it to honestly be able to meet that goal. Affordable bills, like, really, how do you create affordability? And that isn't necessarily by having equal rates that create unequal burdens.
So how do we think about energy affordability and bill affordability in a much more comprehensive way and stop necessary anchoring it in income or in energy efficiency and look more upstream to rates as an example. But also, like, are there possibilities for using clean energy technologies to offer energy the equivalent of a food bank, like an energy pantry?
Or think about energy donations, like energy philanthropy, like what are the kind of new opportunities for creating in kind energy transfers that like open up the possibility for people to meet their energy needs without it being about a bill discount or energy assistance.
Then a robust energy and social safety net. The more people are plugged into different programs, the more secure they are across the board. That's Poverty Alleviation 101. And so like yes, we need a much more robust energy safety net, but we also need, that needs to be anchored in a larger social safety net.
Knowledge and energy literacy. Our society knows not enough about energy and I'm an energy expert and there are still many things about the energy space that are flying over my head.
And so I do think that there's parts of this that need to be like, how do we elevate people's understanding of energy in general and like make something that is so highly technical much more approachable. And then the E is for electrification, clean energy access, efficiency. Efficiency to me is, you know, definitely like it's a starting place and we need to increase energy efficiency in people's homes. And then, you know, anchor that with the electrification and clean energy access of like rooftop solar or community solar, etc. And then the last part is disconnection reform.
And we've thought about criminal justice reform and what happens with moving to less punitive measures, especially around issues that are really rooted in poverty, crimes that are based in people's inability to meet their needs and then they jump the turnstile as an example and stuff like that.
How do we reduce the fines and fees and the deep penalties in, you know, like the criminal justice system?
Disconnections are essentially punishing the poor and being unable to pay on time and, and stay, you know, like, and, and avoid arrears in their utilities. Like, is that the appropriate measure to take when it comes to something that is not a luxury, that it is just so basic and so essential for life's everyday work and being.
And I think that, you know, we need to not only increase the protections but like really question that practice and really root it in the idea of like, energy is a human right and not necessarily some people might like kind of question, like, why are we adding to the number of rights that people should have? But the truth is that energy is an enabler of all of the other established human rights. You can't have the right to health without energy. You cannot have the right to like the freedoms and liberties and like the, you know, like this freedom from inequalities and all these other Things without energy really at a core level, because it is like such a connector of these things. Housing as a human. Right, Right. Like all of these things that we either are established or that for many, you know, people are important priorities.
So I want to at least put that on the table. Like, should we be thinking about energy as a human right? And my answer is yes. I think reading this book makes it a little bit easier probably, for readers to say yes.
But then the question is, how do we do that? And how do we ensure that access to energy is based in affordability as much as it is based in ensuring that our grids are hardened and that we're moving into a just energy transition?
The rest of the world is still moving in that direction. Even if we've taken a little bit of a pause and detour in this country, even that is still moving in many ways. And so, like, how do we leverage that momentum to achieve some of the social goals that we also know are important?
[00:16:06] Speaker C: I mean, that's a mic drop. I don't know what to say.
[00:16:12] Speaker B: I always appreciate when our guests kind of do our work for us and kind of like, set up all these important points. Thinking about that, again, all the different talking points that we had going into this and you covering probably at least 95 to 99% of them just without even being prompted. But one of those main points being at the end, just circling back to that concept of energy as a human. I think probably anyone listening to this podcast would probably agree with you and want to hear more about, you know, how do we make. How do we make that a reality? So, again, opens up the prospects of us diving into, into that more so, so much to unpack there. And the other, the other point that you made being the context of the energy transition that we're going through globally. And we had episode, the beginning of our Right Direction miniseries with Shalanda Baker talking about a just energy transition. What does that mean? And how do all these other pieces kind of fit into that? And, you know, energy burden, energy insecurity, being right kind of at the, at the center of that. How do we use this momentum, this, that, this, this transition that we're going through to help address some of these issues and take some of these resources and, and allocate them in the right way to, to move in the right direction? Again, no pun intended, but.
[00:17:26] Speaker A: Well, and let me just.
[00:17:27] Speaker C: One of the puns should be intended the right direction.
[00:17:31] Speaker A: We could use intentional puns. Let me just say that I want to say something, but I just want to also show you, like, I, I live by this truth. Hold on, let me.
So it says, write your own story.
And at the beginning of writing this book, I. I dedicated this to an ode to the powerless. And I just looked at it right now. I actually, it just kind of. I don't spend all my time here, but to me there's like something incredibly important about writing your own story and what that looks like. But let me tell you, I wouldn't be a good professor if I didn't leave space for homework and that, that homework, like, I feel like I did my homework, right? Like, I literally wrote everything, I gave everything that I had to writing this book. Like, self sacrifice in so many different ways. But the idea that like the solutions and the right directions can come from any one person is like totally misguided, right? Like, this has to be crowdsourced. It has to be like, of the people, for the people, with the people in communities. Like, you know, like, this is, this has to be. And it is already a movement, right? Like we're all contributing to different elements of the movement. But I really do want like people that are listening, of course, and then readers of the book, like, anybody that's interested in this space, like, what. How do we push our work even further, right? Like, if we're more, if we're deeper in our understanding of something, like, how does that help us change direction, move and you know, to more of a systems level? Like, what do we need to do differently to help us achieve our goals? When I think the forces that exist right now are also dark and not necessarily like adding it is making our work harder, right? It isn't like the wind beneath my sail kind of thing that is like propelling us. It's really trying to do the opposite. And so like, how do we work differently in this context, in this moment and prepare for. If they're doing all this dismantling of things that, you know, like the energy safety net that is so important, like how do we pivot and, and how do we bring more people in? Like states, cities, utilities, like, have to be doing more right now. They had to be doing more yesterday or like, you know, meaning a while ago, but now definitely they got to be doing more. They got to show up, they got to figure it out, right? So like, I want to say that that homework part is like kind of important because then that is about passing it off, the talking about the assembly line. That's how we started this conversation, right? It's like we do the recording and then it gets passed on on the editorial side and the promotional side, whatever, because there is like people that are working in their own, like, spaces to move along the process. And I think that that is true for this work as well. This is kind of maybe a different starting place and I hope that like in, you know, this kind of assembly line fashion, like that we can all keep taking the ball and moving it so that we can achieve like these beautiful, like and I think very reasonable and feasible notions of like, energy security for households in the US and around the world.
[00:20:58] Speaker C: Awesome. Well, we couldn't end on a better note. Again, we're definitely going to have you back. There's so many things with energy that we can continue to talk to you about. Everyone makes sure they get Diana Hernandez book powerless. The people struggle for energy.
It really is the homework. The homework is get the book and read it. If you're someone who's never experienced energy, burden or insecurity, it definitely will provide a little bit more empathy and a little bit more behind the scenes of what goes on with everyone. And just because you're not experiencing doesn't mean we can't have all work towards those solutions for those who are.
[00:21:35] Speaker B: Thanks for listening. If you like this episode, make sure to rate and review the show on whatever platform you listen on. If you have thoughts about the show, we encourage you to reach out to us with your thoughts and
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[00:21:47] Speaker C: Out react on Facebook at weact4ej that's W E a c t F O R e j on Instagram, bluesky and YouTube at weact4ej. That's W E A C T number 4ej. And check out our website weact.org for more information about environmental justice.
Until next time.
[00:22:05] Speaker B: Until next time.
[00:22:06] Speaker C: I beat you, Zooit.
[00:22:09] Speaker A: It.
