[00:00:18] Speaker A: Welcome to Uptown Chats, a podcast where we share stories about environmental justice by and for everyday people. I'm your co host, Lonnie.
[00:00:24] Speaker B: And I'm your other co host, Jaron.
[00:00:26] Speaker A: And today we're talking about flooding with our guest, Tyler Taba from Waterfront Alliance.
[00:00:31] Speaker B: That's right. This is a topic that Lonnie and I have been wanting to talk about for quite a while now. And depending on where you live, you may have had some experience with flooding yourself, even here in New York City.
[00:00:42] Speaker A: Before we get to the good stuff, Jaron, can you share WEAC's mission?
[00:00:45] Speaker B: I sure can. We ACT's mission is to build healthy communities by ensuring that people of color and or low income residents participate meaningfully in the creation of sound and fair environmental health and protection policies and practices.
[00:00:57] Speaker A: Thank you, Jaron. So, as I mentioned, we have a great interview with Tyler for you. He'll give us some background about the different types of flooding and how they are impacting communities across New York City.
[00:01:07] Speaker B: And one thing that Tyler mentioned during our interview is that one of the best ways to deal with the impacts of flooding is to be prepared. He encourages folks to sign up for Notify nyc, which provides citywide emergency updates straight to your phone, through text messages or through the app. And we'll make sure to include a link in the show notes if you want to learn more about that.
[00:01:26] Speaker A: Yeah. And if you are someone who lives in northern Manhattan, you should also check out WEAC's climate ready uptown plan that we developed in partnership with East Harlem COAD and a Harlem Emergency network. So the CRUP plan, as we call it, is a physical pamphlet that helps northern Manhattan community members understand their individual risk to climate related disasters, specifically extreme heat or coastal and stormwater, stormwater or pial flooding, and provides pertinent information to help prepare themselves and their families. We'll make sure to include the link in the show notes for that as well.
[00:01:59] Speaker B: And with that, let's go ahead and jump into our interview with Tyler.
[00:02:02] Speaker A: Let's go.
[00:02:12] Speaker B: All right, thank you so much for joining us, Tyler. We're super excited to have you on the podcast today to talk about an overdue topic on the podcast. I feel like Lonnie and I have wanted to do an episode about flooding for a long time now and we're finally here. I feel like it's the right timing. You know, a lot of us are thinking about flooding in New York City, especially with some major flooding that's, that's happened in recent years and even this year. So before we get into the topic of flooding and have you, you know, help us, you know, learn and explain some things for us. Can you just quickly introduce yourself, tell us a little bit about your role and Waterfront alliance and just some of the work that y' all are doing?
[00:02:48] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. Well, thanks first of all, for having me on. I'm really excited to be here and talking with you both. My name is Tyler Tava. I'm the director of Resilience at the Waterfront Alliance. We are a nonprofit organization based here in New York City with a primarily New York and New Jersey harbor region. But that's starting to grow and I can talk about that in just a second. But we are really focused on climate resilience and that is clear in many of our programs. So I help lead our policy and advocacy work for climate resilience and adaptation. That's mostly on legislation, funding and planning for threats like flooding, extreme heat, and all the things that we're seeing across the region. But we also have some really cool programs that I'd like to shout out. We have an Estuary Explorers program where we teach climate change and estuary curriculum in New York City public high schools.
We take students out to the local waterfront and remind them that New York City is a waterfront city. We're 520 miles of waterfront. But I think we sometimes don't see ourselves as that waterfront city that we are. We also have a Waterfront Edge Design Guidelines program. The acronym is wedge, and that's a rating system that Waterfront alliance created to help actually assess the climate, resilience, ecology and public access of projects. Infrastructure, parks, housing, anything that's being built along the waterfront, except for single family homes can go through a wedge review, similar to like a lead verification. You can get wedge verified to make sure that your building is the best practice in climate resilience, ecology and public access. We advocate for a healthy maritime industry. You know, that's a big part of our economy here. Lots of ships and containers coming in, bringing goods and services to New Yorkers. And then we also are a big advocate for the New York City ferry. So we helped, we like to say that we helped launch that five borough ferry service, bringing that back under Mayor, then Mayor de Blasio. So we do a lot along the waterfront and my role is really focused on, on the policy and advocacy. So I'm excited to talk more about some of that with you all.
[00:04:44] Speaker A: Amazing. And even in that intro, I don't think of New York City as much as, even though it is, it's a coastal city, but I don't think of as like a water city as compared to other places that are like, beach heavy and forward. But I forget that I live, you know, uptown Manhattan. And so I'm not down in Brooklyn or Queens where there's beaches and all of that, although the waterfront. But. But yeah, that means that New York City has to deal with flooding, being a coastal city, especially with the changes that are going on with the climate as well. But I think before we dive into some of the more detailed aspects of flooding, I think it's really important for people to kind of understand that there are different types of flooding that we think of and that we have to deal with, particularly in New York City. So could you give a little bit of overview of those different types of flooding and what they are?
[00:05:33] Speaker C: Yeah, definitely. So you're right. There's many different types of flooding, and I think we kind of think of it as this, like, monolith, the city floods, but there's different ways that it floods. So there's kind of three areas that maybe I'll emphasize in terms of the highest flood risk in the city. So you have the more obvious one, which I think everybody's familiar with, and that's coastal flooding, and that's really primarily driven by storm surges or hurricanes. I mean, I think Hurricane Sandy lives in the minds of every New Yorker. Anybody who's been here, or even people who came after and didn't live here know somebody who's been affected by Hurricane Sandy. And that coastal storm risk is really driven by more frequent and intense hurricanes, which the city is projected to experience.
Then you also have, like, a slower kind of creep, which is sea level rise, where the water levels across the city are actually rising across the. Across the globe. But the Northeast in particular is an area with a high rate of sea level rise. So the sea levels are rising in some parts of the north east, particularly New York, New Jersey, more than they are other parts of the east coast of the United States. And there's lots of different reasons for that. You know, the oceans are warming, and that's also. That allows for a phenomenon called thermal expansion, where like, when there's actually there's more water that the. The higher the temperature is, the more water can expand. And so you're getting more sea level rise. You know, obviously, as glaciers melt, that's a big factor into how much sea levels are going to rise. Right up in the Antarctic and Greenland ice sheets, as those melt, we might see more sea level rise. So that's kind of the coastal flood risk, and that's really obvious in places like Far Rockaway, Coney Island, Staten Island. Right. Even some parts of the South Bronx where you can see that impact very clearly.
Then you have a more something that happens more regularly but has been starting to inundate our city a lot more. And that is called pluvial flooding. But that's really just a wonky term for rainfall or stormwater flooding.
And that's primarily driven by rain. And the issue there is that we're seeing more frequent and intense rainfall in New York City. So it's always rained, right. And so that's not really like a new issue here. But what's happening more and more is that we're getting rainfall in a shorter interval of time, with more water coming in during that interval of time. And so that you might have heard a term called cloudburst. And that's really what that is referring to. That's a phenomenon where a lot of water is coming in at once and there's nowhere for that water to go. The sewer systems in New York City are really old. They're outdated, and they weren't built or designed to handle this kind of new, high level of water, of rainfall that's coming in. And we have also, obviously, a lot of impermeable surfaces, concrete and asphalt, all throughout the city. And that doesn't lend itself very well to absorbing water. And so that's why you see a lot of ponding and puddling in the subways and in people's homes and on the streets. And then the third that I think is important to mention here too, is tidal flooding, or sometimes referred to as sunny day flooding. And that's flooding that happens also mostly in coastal areas and really during high tides, but then can be exacerbated by if you're experiencing a high tide at the same time as a heavy rainfall event, then you're seeing that kind of compound flooding. And that's a term that I think is really important here, because I mentioned those kind of three different types of floodings. But those also can be compounded and integrated within each other. And that's where you get that kind of multi flood risk. And so we're really seeing a growing level of flood risk all over the city, where I think maybe once upon a time you thought of it as a coastal issue. But now a lot of inland parts of the city are starting to flood more regularly. And Hurricane Ida was really the most devastating reminder of that. But we even have unnamed kind of flash flood rainfall events that are starting to really inundate Parts of New York City.
[00:09:15] Speaker B: I appreciate you starting to talk about the. Well, first of all, I appreciate those definitions because Lonnie and I always talk about how much we learn on the podcast. Having those terms is always helpful. But I appreciate you starting to get into where our minds always naturally go is who's being impacted and where, you know, what parts of the city. Because inevitably, that's where you start to think about the environmental justice aspect of an issue. And, you know, flooding is no different. It impacts people differently. So can you tell us a little bit more about, you know, of those three different types of flooding, what is the biggest concern in terms of environmental justice? And how is that showing up in the city in terms of who's being impacted and in what ways? And what are the. What are some of those real, real really felt impacts by people living in New York?
[00:09:57] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. It's a really good question. I mean, I think the kind of first point I like to make is that flooding is absolutely an environmental justice issue, and it's not a coincidence that it's an environmental justice issue. So let's maybe. For starters, I think what I'd like to highlight is that a lot of the flooding is obviously place based, and that means that flood risk in low income and communities of color is higher. And I'm thinking specifically about places like Far Rockaway, the South Bronx, Coney Island, East Harlem, Red Hook, and the North Shore of Staten Island. You know, these are largely black and brown working class New York neighborhoods, and these are neighborhoods in communities that are directly on the waterfront. So the flood risk is very obvious. And I think this is where Waterfront Alliance's kind of broad overview of the waterfront comes in. Because it's hard to imagine this today because of how desirable waterfront land is now. I mean, we see lots of high rises, luxury housing along the waterfront, but it was not always like that. The waterfront was one of the least desirable places in the city. And that is because of the toxic and industrial legacy when it used to be a literal dumping ground for chemicals and trash and sewage. And you know, in many ways today it still is a dumping ground for sewage. When it, when there's a lot of rainfall coming in, the sewer system can't handle that amount of water, like I mentioned before. And that means that when you flush your toilet and it's raining, all that water is getting combined into one pipe and just going straight out into the river, into the east river or the Hudson or wherever that outfall might be, the Harlem river, it could be really anywhere. So you Know, back then, people did not want to live by the water. So if you look at some of the historic and structural racism, you know, policies like redlining, you can see very clearly how low income and communities of color were systematically put in harm's way. Communities that were redlined are primarily now in the floodplain.
That's not even just coastal neighborhoods either. You know, that includes many low lying and inland communities with poor drainage infrastructure like East New York, Jamaica and Corona. So it's really not a coincidence to me that flood risk is an environmental justice issue. And that actually has to be central to any conversation that we have about flood solutions. Because, you know, these are neighborhoods and areas that are experiencing the greatest economic and social vulnerabilities. And now you're adding climate vulnerability on top of that. And so any kind of solutions that the city or private sector or whoever is looking at for addressing climate change has to start with these communities. And so, you know, you asked what kinds of flooding are impacting environmental justice communities the most. I think it's really a combination of all of them. Climate change is making coastal storms, rainfall and sea level rise more frequent and more intense. And that burden is being felt harder by our most economically and socially vulnerable neighborhoods.
[00:12:55] Speaker A: Again, not thinking about things in the same way and learning stuff all the time. I can't imagine a waterfront not being desirable. But when you put it in terms of the industrial aspect and thinking about all that and dumping stuff in there, I guess it wouldn't be a desirable place. So, so that, you know, the infrastructure and stuff that was built for, for low income communities, communities of color, those who are working in some of those industries as well, being kind of built around that. That such an interesting thought, and I didn't even mind is blown given the fact that you talked a little bit about the infrastructure in the city being older, not being able to handle certain things like the stormwater and whatnot. How does the city go about addressing flooding, especially being multiple types of flooding that we experience here in the city and having the infrastructure that we have?
[00:13:44] Speaker C: Yeah, it's a really good question and I think there's a lot. And so maybe I'll start, I'll go over kind of a spectrum, I think of solutions and starting with maybe what's. What kind of solutions are most accessible to New Yorkers today, and then building out all the way into the kind of large scale infrastructure that can take, you know, 10, 20, 30 years to build. And some of that is already underway. So for starters, I think people who are listening can Pull out their phones right now and download an app or go to a website called Notify nyc.
And that's a tool that you can have to actually sign up for notifications to know when flooding is on the horizon. So once you've done that, I'd actually then take it a step further and recommend familiarizing yourself with some of the city's resources and tools. On the New York City emergency management website. Things like knowing your evacuation zone. New York City has six evacuation zones. You might be in none of them, but even still you can find the nearest accessible evacuation center to you. You know, mine is PS321, so if we're ever in that event, you can catch me there. I hope that never happens. But there's tons of great resources if you're, if you check out nyc.govem and I start there because I don't think people think of themselves as solutions, but you are a solution. And if you know that there's a storm coming, you can know how to protect yourself. And that can help you talk to your family, your friends, your neighbors. And that's really where I think a lot of this starts. It's by building a more climate informed and aware community. So starting with that kind of base level and then building on that, there are then some resources that the city has, that the city offers that can help you in your home in the event of a storm. There is some really cool events the city puts on where they give away flood kits that include flood sensors, deployable barriers, sump pumps that can help you pump water from your home. And there's even other giveaways for like sandbags and other interim flood tools for if you're in an even more high risk flood area. And a lot of that stuff can also be found in your local hardware store as well. And you know, then if you're in a really, really flood prone area, there's even more intensive kind of retrofit level programs the city and the state offer where you could install a flood vent in your home or a backwater valve to reduce sewer backups. And even going as far as elevating your mechanicals to higher ground, you know, that critical infrastructure, electrical, things like that, and elevating your home, abandoning the first floor. There's grants and loan programs the state offers through the Office of Homes and Community Renewal that can support with things like that.
But then moving out of your home and onto the streetscape and the city's infrastructure, there's a whole suite of solutions that I think the city relies on. For reducing flooding. There's things like green medians and rain gardens and even green roofs. And these are all things that can reduce the level of flooding on the street and just hold and store that water so that it's not entering your home or the subway system or local businesses, schools.
And that's, you know, largely again, because our sewer infrastructure is just not designed to handle the intense rainfall that New York City has been experiencing lately. The, the underground sewer pipes just straight up can't handle that sheer amount of rainfall coming in. So these kinds of solutions can actually help to absorb, store and delay the water that's going into the sewer system and that reduces flooding as a one off. Again, you know, those things are not going to necessarily move the needle. One rain garden, one green roof. But if you have a network and a system of them throughout the city, I think that really makes big difference. And then of course, I think lastly here you have the really more large scale infrastructure projects and that includes things like the city Department of Environmental Protection or deps Cloudburst Management Program, and even some, you know, much larger coastal infrastructure projects like the east side Coastal Resiliency Project in the Lower east side, the South Battery Park City Resiliency Project in Battery Park City, Red Hook Coastal Resiliency in Red Hook, and the Five Eye Seaport Climate Resilience Master Plan in the Financial District in the Seaport. And these are, you know, projects that are usually in the billions of dollars range where land is being elevated 8 to 10ft in some cases, flood walls are being built, stormwater management is being upgraded. But again, those are really large scale and not happening all across the city. So there's really kind of a spectrum of solutions that the city has.
[00:18:04] Speaker B: I appreciate that. I love, I always love a good, you know, starting small and kind of zooming out. I think that's how a lot of us think we are. Our immediate thought process as well. How is this impacting me? What can I do and what are some of the actions that I can take? Especially on this podcast, we like to keep it very action oriented. So I appreciate those, those starting with those and kind of zooming out to the higher level and giving some examples. And I know that you work a little bit on the policy side of things as well. We talked about some of the physical infrastructure pieces and some of the action items that people can do. Do you want to talk a little bit more about the policy landscape around flooding in New York City and New York State for that matter, and just talk about, you know, some of the Plans. I know New York City loves plans. So just tell, tell us a little bit about the policy and planning side of some of this work as well.
[00:18:50] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. So one thing I forgot to mention in the introduction is that a big part of my role is convening a coalition called Rise to Resilience. So I help facilitate this coalition, which is now about 110 organizations across New York and New Jersey. And it's a coalition of community based grassroots organizations all the way to regional organizations and up to national and even international organizations that are collectively coming together to make climate resilience a more urgent policy priority. And so that coalition is really the thrust of how I and the Waterfront alliance actively engage on policy. And we're really lucky that we act as such a strong partner in the Rise to Resilience coalition. So we've been really fortunate to have the support of really strong organizations like we act and Rebuild by Design, Environmental Defense Fund, South Bronx Unite. I mean, I could list so many, and I think, you know, really broadly speaking, the policy landscape, before I jump into like specific legislation, I just want to preface by saying the policy landscape can be a struggle. We operate unfortunately in a very reactive way to flooding and actually I think to climate impacts in general, where, you know, when a storm or a climate disaster hits, it is all hands on deck. Every city council member and borough president and state assembly and senator want to take action. They want to do something, they want to cut a ribbon, they want to pass a bill. But when it comes to being proactive and taking actions early, that's where I think we are still, well, well behind. And that's a real issue because it means that things are only happening when times are desperate. And it's also, you know, I think importantly, that means that things are not part of a systems wide approach. It's just a, oh, okay, so a hurricane just hit, a storm just hit. We're going to invest resources into that area that was just hit and then we just wait until something else happens and then we invest resources there. I mean, that's not a good model. I think what we've been trying to advocate as a coalition and as an organization is that you have to be thinking about these things in the long term. I mean, these infrastructure projects, for example, can take decades. And so you can't start the funding and the planning for that and expect things to get rolling right away. You know, that takes time. It takes time to engage with community and to get designs moving. And it takes even longer to get funding into construction. And so you know, I think that's one area that I like to highlight on the policy end is that we really need to do a better job as a city and as a state in making sure that we're investing early and taking action early. So we're working on two state bills right now that I think are really important to highlight. One is called the Climate Resilient New York act, and that is a bill that would establish an Office of Resilience at the executive level, so under the governor's office.
And it would require the governor to actually appoint a Chief Resilience officer to oversee all of New York State's climate resilience plans, goals, policies and practices. We don't have that right now, which is a huge gap in our governance. We don't have a point person who's managing all of this. So so many agencies are doing climate resilience work, you know, the Department of Environmental Conservation, the state parks, state.com. but it's not all part of a system wide plan. And so that's really what we're trying to do with the Climate Resilient New York act is create a Chief Resilience Officer and a statewide climate resilience plan that many states, even radical climate states like Florida, believe it or not, have, and we don't. And so we're trying to make sure that New York is staying on top of that. And the second bill is a bill called the Rain Ready New York Act. And we ACT has been a really big supporter and partner on that bill. And, and that's really aimed at making sure that we are managing stormwater in a way that makes sense in this kind of growing extreme rainfall climate, I guess you could say. And so Rain Ready is a bill that would essentially allow DEP and other sewer and water authorities across the entire state of New York to manage for stormwater the same way that they manage for sewage. And you know, it can be kind of a wonky thing, but these things are entering the same pipe.
And so it makes a lot of sense for DEP and other sewer and water authorities to be able to manage stormwater the way that they're managing sewage water. But there's some, you know, language in the state law that is a little bit nebulous about how you do that. And so Rain Ready would just make sure that the city could actually invest its water rate money into stormwater management practices, which is a little bit questionable right now. And so those are two bills that we're really excited about, have both gained some level of traction in Albany, but have not made it all the way through. And so. So we're really hoping that in 2026 that we can see those.
That we can see those bills realized.
[00:23:31] Speaker B: With that. Okay, let's pivot a little bit and talk a little bit about some of the plans that you mentioned. As we said, New York City loves plans. I know there's some plans out there related to flooding. So can you just tell us about some of the planning that's been done related to flooding in the city and how it relates to some of the things that we've talked about so far?
[00:23:47] Speaker C: Sure. So, yes, we sure do love plans in New York City.
I think the big overarching plan that is maybe at the top of the list is the one that comes out every 10 years, listeners might know, called Plan YC.
And that's the city's kind of comprehensive climate environmental sustainability plan that sets out some of the goals for issues around flooding, extreme heat, transportation, energy and all that stuff. And in the latest Plan YC, which was released in 2023, there were several commitments related to flooding. I think two, maybe of the big ones that I like to highlight are that the city recently just established its first kind of permanent Bureau of Coastal Resilience within the Department of Environmental Protection. So we now have this bureau that is in charge of managing the city's kind of comprehensive coastal resilience portfolio and that lives within, depending on, you know, we really think that's a great idea. The commissioner there is Lori and Farrell, and she's wonderful and we've been really excited about her vision for DEP and how they're going to look at comprehensive planning on coastal resilience issues. So that's a good governance example. And then we have a really good kind of programmatic example where Plan YC set out to establish the city's first permanent voluntary buyout program.
And so that is a program that is in the works right now. And it would be New York City's first ever program where homeowners or renters, hopefully renters, that's something we've been advocating for. But usually homeowners are able to actually sell their homes. If you live in a very high flood risk area and you're looking to get out of harm's way, you can actually sell your home to the city and they will help you relocate to higher ground and your home will be taken down and convert it back into some kind of natural floodplain to help protect your community and neighbors from flooding. And that was something that happened after Hurricane Sandy. There was a big buyout program, a community led buyout program at the south shore of Staten island in Oakwood Beach. I think if anyone's curious, I'd recommend checking that out. It was a really cool process. I mean, it was in the midst of something really devastating, obviously, but it was a moment where community came together and said, we don't want to be here anymore. This is too high risk of an area. And they actually relocated to a different part of Staten island. And that whole area is kind of converted into public green space. And so the city is working on a program there. And that's just one kind of example of a program or a tool that, that people can take advantage of if you're looking to move out of harm's way. And then some other kind of just quick plans that I'll mention. There's the comprehensive waterfront plan. That's one that's led by the Department of City Planning, that's really focused on zoning and public waterfront access, which is something else. Near and dear to Waterfront alliance is hard. It's making sure we have publicly accessible waterfronts where people can get out to the water.
So that's a really good plan. But you know, what I'd really like to highlight is some of the community led plans because I think that's where there's a lot of power and vision and that's where I think the city and the state should be looking at when they're thinking about any new projects or ideas.
Some of our partners, like South Bronx Unite, they have plans. The Mott Haven Port Morris waterfront plan. It's an incredible vision for what the South Bronx waterfront could be. That's another area with the heavy legacy of industrial waterfront disconnected from their waterfront. And how, you know, this community could get back to the waterfront in a way that is about access, recreation and resilience. Our partners at the Coney Island Beautification Project have been leading a community led planning effort for Coney island community around flood resilience. And you know, that's where I think the city can really make a big effort in going and meeting communities where they are and taking some of those plans forward. You know, I know we act has an East 125th street community vision or action plan. And so, you know, these are all really amazing ideas and plans. And it's no easy feat to get community out together, engaged and coming up with a plan. And so a lot of the legwork is there, a lot of the ideas are there. And I would encourage the city to go work with those communities and look at those plans as they're starting to build out. Any new plans.
So yeah, that's a kind of short answer to some of the planning efforts, but there's, there's definitely lots of them.
[00:28:01] Speaker B: Well, with that, Tyler, I think that's about it for the questions that we had prepared for you, but I want to give you space to share any other questions, projects, initiatives that you're working on, any other last points that you want to make about flooding in New York City or just anything else that you think is important to say.
[00:28:17] Speaker C: Yeah, well, thanks so much for having me. I think just to close, I would say if you're interested in getting involved in learning more about these issues, feel free to check out the Rise to Resilience Coalition website. We're always looking for new members to join the coalition and to add their name to the fight.
So we're definitely looking, looking for it to grow our membership and coalition strength in numbers is really important here.
And then, you know, one thing, maybe as a, as a sneak peek or preview, we've been working Waterfront alliance has been working with the Parks Department on a climate resilience study at Flushing Meadows Corona Park. We've been doing a lot of community engagement there. Flushing Meadows Corona park, believe it or not, is the park that floods the most in New York City. I think a lot of people don't know that, but it's a very low lying park and it's subject to a lot of extreme rainfall and tidal flooding. And so we were really fortunate to be awarded some funding from Congresswoman Meng and the national oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, NOAA to do a study there. We're getting ready to launch our report with the final recommendations in October. So keep an eye out for that and I think there will be some really cool ideas that come out of that and ready for advocacy. But you know, otherwise I would say just thanks so much for having me. I hope everybody stays dry and enjoyed hearing some of the issues and solutions that are out there. But it's definitely a group effort and I'm optimistic that we can address these issues, but it's definitely not going to be easy. So appreciate the partnership with we act and really, really grateful to be here.
[00:29:49] Speaker A: Thanks for listening. If you like this episode, make sure to rate and review the show on whatever platform you listen on. If you have thoughts about the show, we encourage you to reach out to us with your thoughts and suggestions at.
[00:29:59] Speaker B:
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[00:30:20] Speaker A: Until next time, Bye Peace.
[00:30:25] Speaker C: SA.
