[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:17] Speaker B: Welcome to Uptown Chats, a podcast where we share stories about environmental justice by and for everyday people. I'm your co host, Jaron.
[00:00:25] Speaker C: And I'm your other co host, Lonnie.
[00:00:27] Speaker B: And today our topic is something that has been getting a lot of attention in the news lately, and that is data centers.
We'll be joined by Yosef Robele, WEAC's federal policy manager, to talk about the environmental justice perspective on data centers and what that looks like here in New York to some extent. But before we get to that, Lonnie, can you share WEAC's mission?
[00:00:50] Speaker C: Absolutely.
WEAC's mission is to build healthy communities by ensuring that people of color and low income residents participate meaningfully in the creation of sound and fair environmental health and protection policies and practices.
[00:01:01] Speaker B: Thank you. Before we jump into our interview with Yosef, I think it's a good idea to give a little bit more context about data centers for folks who are less familiar with them, which I know it's probably hard to do nowadays with all the news coverage, but there's people like me who live under a rock and you might not have all the up to date knowledge. So let's just go ahead and start with the basics, which first and foremost is what even is a data center. So data centers are facilities that hold technology infrastructure used for digital storage, communication, and to process computing demands for other programs. You think of it like a big room full of computers that are running at max capacity to process data and information.
Data centers have existed for decades, but hyperscale data centers hold tens of thousands of servers and have drawn national attention because they use way more power and water than traditional data centers, which is a lot of what's been getting coverage in the news lately. And these hyperscale data centers and similar facilities are being constructed and operated across the United States at an accelerating rate, largely linked to investments in artificial intelligence or AI.
And this is largely happening without considering impacts on local communities and or without their consent or knowledge.
There are an estimated 4,000 data centers in the United States with a large number of those located in Texas, California, and Data Center Alley, which is in Northern Virginia.
These energy and resource intensive polluting facilities contribute to environmental, health and economic burdens for communities of color and low income. And these communities are often already dealing with decades of health harms from existing toxic polluting sources like power plants and highways, along with general underinvestment and lack of resources. So it's really just adding a layer on top of all these existing problems.
[00:03:09] Speaker C: Or we can bring back one of the words that we used before. Cumulative impacts.
[00:03:13] Speaker B: Cumulative impacts, exactly.
[00:03:15] Speaker C: Great episode. Check it out.
[00:03:17] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:03:18] Speaker C: With that being said, I know we talked about a few places where a lot of data centers are concentrated right now, but they are on the move and on the rise and they're coming everywhere.
[00:03:27] Speaker B: Hide your kids,
[00:03:30] Speaker C: hide your kids, hide your wife.
As we mentioned earlier, data centers are basically being built all over the place, and New York is no exception. One thing that does make New York a little different is that New York now has a moratorium on building new hyperscale data centers. So New York state is experiencing unexpected growth and in demand for data center development driven by, again, what we talked about, artificial intelligence and some other computing operations.
And this increase in demand has led to proposals across the state for the construction and operation of data centers that could require massive amounts of energy and water to run and cool all of those servers, the tens of thousands of servers that can actually go into data centers. Until July of this year, Governor Kathy Hochul signed an executive order to create the nation's first moratorium on hyperscale data centers. The governor is temporarily pausing state environmental permits for up to one year in order to build a regulatory framework with the goal to protect ratepayers, the environment, the energy grid, and communities across the state. So basically, you're not going to be able to be permitted to build a data center for a year while the government kind of tries to figure some stuff out and trying to figure out how are we doing this without really harming everybody in the process. As a part of that executive order, the Empire State Development, or esd, has issued a community investment framework, which is meant to provide guidance to local entities to help them negotiate community benefits as part of any large scale data center deal, including local infrastructure improvement, childcare investments, and direct financial support for the actual community itself. It's a very, very local fight.
[00:05:07] Speaker B: Yeah. So as you can tell, a lot of people are paying attention to this issue. So naturally we had to make sure that we covered it and talk about it from the environmental justice perspective, which luckily we have Yosef here to help us with that.
And you know, of course, with all these issues, this is where a bulk of the advocacy across the country has been centered in terms of protecting communities from the negative impacts of these large hyperscale data centers. And of course, that's going to be the focus of our conversation with Yousef today. So with all that said, hopefully some of that context is helpful. Let's go ahead and jump into our interview so Yousef can tell us A little bit more.
[00:05:41] Speaker C: Yeah, let's get into it.
[00:05:49] Speaker B: Well, thank you so much for joining us, Joseph, for this interview. I think this is probably one of our most requested and probably very long awaited topic for a lot of folks for listeners of the podcast who have been wanting us to talk about data centers for a while. But before we get into the good stuff in here, you know, from your perspective, some of the things that are going on with data centers and the intersection between data centers and environmental justice.
Let's just start with introductions. Can you just briefly introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about your role at weact?
[00:06:19] Speaker A: Awesome. Yeah, thanks you guys for having me. My name is Yosef Robele. I'm a Federal Policy manager here at We act, working in our D.C. office. I work on energy and transportation issues.
A lot of data is responding to the administration's attacks on our clean air laws as well as other attempts to fast track developments like data centers. So yeah, over the last year I've been working along with others at how we act on our data center stance, supporting members of the Environmental Justice Leadership Forum and their local data center fights and yeah, trying to help generate resources for communities and respond to all the goings on Vonda relating to data centers and the administration as well.
[00:07:08] Speaker C: Awesome. Well, we appreciate you doing all that work and this is a huge topic, so let's kind of just dive right into it. I think a lot of people have gotten an introduction to data centers from Jared and I, but we want to hear about some more aspects of what's going on. So my first question is going to be data centers are kind of pitched as this economic driver for communities. Right. So it creates jobs, there will be property taxes and all of the things that we keep hearing from benefits. However, we know that's a very partial truth of a possibility that goes on and that's a little bit murky on the benefits of having a data center in your community. Can you give us the full picture of what communities are actually paying by having a data center being put into their basically their backyards?
[00:07:53] Speaker A: Yeah, no, that's a great question. I mean economics intersects with bit of everything, but I think most people go straight to jobs, so I can start there. Now, data centers are pretty similar to what we've seen from other industries. And these developers, these proponents do tend to over promise on the amount of jobs that these facilities produce. And in addition to that, the jobs that are generated are a bit questionable if they actually end up going to the community members themselves versus like someone from out of town or stuff like that. So I think that's one aspect that they do generate some jobs as any facility, but the amounts tend to be exaggerated or temporary. In terms of construction jobs, I think something that gets left out of the equation in terms of the jobs is how much the investment to job ratio comes out to be. So I think a great case study of this is a report from the Investigative Post in March that was relating to the Stamp data center.
And what that report highlighted was that it was costing 11.7 million per job in state and local subsidies, which is a massive amount. It might be the highest we've seen in US History.
For reference, these investigative reports also mentioned that there was a Tesla plant in South Buffalo, that the cost per job came out to be about $650,000. And that was also considered outrageously high. So you see these huge amounts of money in terms of tax subsidies being invested into these data centers with very limited job output. So it does beg the question of is this data center really what a community needs versus an investment in another facility or infrastructure, things of that nature.
But pulling back a bit from the jobs, the economic burden also includes the costs that are passed down onto the local residents. So, you know, most infamously, it's the utility costs. Right. We've seen a 7% increase nationally in people's utility rates, but this varies dramatically by region. So in our Backyard here in D.C. virginia, utility rates costs have raised by over 267% over the last five years. So massive increases in utility rates that include the amount of energy that these centers are sucking up, but also include the costs that are passed down for just attaching these data centers to the grid. Yeah, just going on about like the tax subsidies again, you know, 37 states currently give tax exemptions, 14 of which don't disclose how much those tax exemptions cost them. You know, but of the states we do know, Virginia, Texas, Ohio and Georgia all lose over a billion dollars per year from these data centers.
Yeah. And then lastly, you know, the health care costs as well. So in the event these data centers are burning fossil fuels, which most of them are, you have health impacts on the surrounding communities. And you know, as we all know, healthcare is really expensive in this country. So like any chronic conditions that are exasperated or picked up from living near these facilities is the cost to the local residents as well as other more indirect costs like lost work days or school days. So, you know, I think painting a broad picture, we're seeing a lot of costs being placed on communities in relation to the potential for a limited amount of jobs that might not even go to them.
[00:11:46] Speaker B: I appreciate some of that context because again, I think a lot of what we do on the podcast is dispelling some myths around different industries and sectors and technologies. And so I think that we touched on a lot of those related to data centers. Some of the false promises around economic benefits for jobs and other things. And all those things that you're saying actually give me flashbacks to when we did our Wrong Direction miniseries and all the different industry is like lng, liquid natural gas and other energy related facilities that came to communities and made promises about jobs and other economic benefits and didn't follow through on those things and also had all these other unintended consequences or maybe intended consequences, depending on how you look at it. So it's really interesting to see the parallels here with this, with these data centers emerging and some other facilities that we've been seeing for decades burdening environmental justice communities, which.
Which organically segues to, I think our next question, which is about how did data centers become an environmental justice issue in the first place? And what exactly are communities living next to these facilities being exposed to? I know you started to hint at that a little bit with some of the healthcare cost pieces, but wanted to give you some space to elaborate more on that and unpack the environmental justice lens here related to data centers.
[00:13:09] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's a great question. And I think going off of what you were just saying, you know, we're kind of seeing similar playbooks that have been done in the past in this deployment of data centers. So we're seeing a lot of them placed in already historically overburdened communities dealing with other like polluting infrastructure, you know, whether it be like highways or coal plants, you know, other fossil fuel facilities. We're seeing that these data centers are being targeted to place areas like that, you know, which tend to be lower income, have a high concentration of people of color.
It depends on the facility. But I think some of the reoccurring themes that we see is air pollution. Like I said earlier, majority of these data centers are powered by fossil fuels. And more concerningly, a lot of these data centers, in order to get up and running quickly, are resorting to going what we call off the grid.
And to do that, they're using diesel generators, which are less efficient and more polluting than what we then more traditional means of getting electricity. So I mean, the infamous example is definitely what we see in Boxtown in Memphis, where Xai deployed, I believe, 69 diesel generators highly polluting from. I also do transportation. So diesel exhaust is classified as a Class 1 carcinogen. And that means it's in the most likely group of substances that can cause cancer.
When you inhale this exhaust, you're exposed to things like balt, organic compounds, nitrogen oxides, particulate matter.
And you know, these can have a variety of low effects. You know, most obviously is it the respiratory conditions, exasperating asthma, lung cancer, but also cardiovascular and reproductive harms. So you see these facilities coming into communities already dealing with high amounts of pollution and putting in extremely polluting infrastructure. You know, and the data centers that aren't using these diesel generators are causing such a demand that they're causing things like coal plants to be reignited that weren't necessarily viable before. So the communities that finally got a coal plant closed are like now back to dealing with it being turned on. So the air pollution is definitely really concerning. We're just seeing again similar to a lot of fossil fuel infrastructure, exposure to these toxic carcinogenic air pollutants.
On the water side there are concerns about the use of PFAS and the cooling systems for these facilities.
There's not a lot of data on how much is being leaked into waterways. But PFAS are also known as forever chemicals that can have impacts on reproductive health, for example.
And the cooling systems for these data centers use those extensively. So we have potential PFAS contamination when these data centers release the water back into local waterways. And we also have increased PFAS production. So communities near these facilities dealing with even more PFAs, potentially dealing with more PFAS contamination in their communities.
Then lastly, you know, and it's not all inclusive, but I'd also talk about the water demand itself. You know, we see a lot of these being built in drought prone areas that are already dealing with, with issues around water. Places like Arizona, Colorado, and even in places that you don't necessarily think of as drought prone, the water demand can cause issues like what we've seen in with Amazon facilities in Oregon where county already had issues with nitrate pollution.
And the process of using water for the data center actually increased the concentration of nitrates for that community. So there is some variation based on where exactly the data center is. But we do see reoccurring themes of air pollution, water pollution. Of course the noise pollution is also a big concern for a lot of communities.
And yeah, all these externalities are placed upon the communities that these data centers are cited in.
[00:17:32] Speaker C: I think what's interesting about everything you just said is that if you were to remove the word or term data centers, you would just think that you were talking about any major polluting facility that we always talk about in environment justice communities. That's like, whether it be a big car plant, a steel mill or any of these things, these are all of the same exact issues. But I don't think we think of data centers in that way because we think of it as technological. And it just exists in the realm of just the ether. And it exists, but it's like, no, these are causing a lot of different problems. And I think the example that you think it was at an XAI data center for Memphis is that you were referring to, I think was where a lot of people, including myself, first realized that there were some major impacts that data centers were having, or especially these large scale mega data centers that are being proposed to be the size of Manhattan and all the craziness that goes on there. And so I just think it's just fascinating that it's just such a parallel to other things we've talked about, not only on the podcast, but what we talk about in general, environmental justice. So it's just the link is, it just has to be made that there is a link between all of this work and like you said, the air quality aspect, diesel generators, coal pipes, power plants being repurposed now to just power this one facility. But thinking about that and how people are relating to these data centers, you've given this stat before in presentations, but polling suggests that more than three quarters of Americans would not want a data center built near them. For you, why has this become such a flashpoint and why do you frame it as like a democracy issue when you talk about it?
[00:19:05] Speaker A: I don't think I'm blowing anyone's minds when I say people aren't most satisfied with the way the country is going at the moment. You know, this administration's underwater on every issue, you know, especially the economy.
Costs have gone up for a lot of people and there's just like a lot of dissatisfaction.
You know, I think these data centers have become like a physical symbol of, for a lot of what people are like, currently dissatisfied with. You know, we're seeing this massive investment going into these facilities that have, you know, at best, fairly questionable benefits to them.
And we're also being asked to essentially pay for the costs of these centers. You know, we're being asked to pay monetarily through these, you know, tax subsidies, through utility bills, increases, you know, for the residents near these data centers. What are held, you know, being exposed to these dangerous pollutants, you know, and our future in terms of climate change, you know, derailing our climate goals to build out these facilities.
I think it's so intersectional. I think it's ended up in a situation where a lot of people in the US from one angle or another, or oftentimes multiple angles, have a legitimate concern or grievance with the way the status and a build out is happening.
I think with that it is a huge democracy issue because you see these facilities still being pushed out with little review through, with little transparency. And I think it's awoken a lot of people to, you know, a lot of environmental justice issues. A lot of what, you know, traditional environmental justice communities have had to deal with for decades since, since people have been fighting for, you know, better environments, better public health protections and, you know, better quality of lives.
[00:21:07] Speaker B: It's interesting to think about as we're kind of repeating for some of these questions, like a new lens to some of these ongoing environmental justice issues, just with a new source attached to it, with data centers versus some of the other facilities that we talk about, like how that brings a lot of the key messages around environmental justice to the forefront. For some people it's like, oh yeah, this is wrong. Why are we doing this? It's like a little bit more, a little bit more into the cultural zeitgeist or more of a tabletop conversation.
So thanks. Data centers, unintended consequence. But you know, in response to some of the dissatisfaction, as you're getting at with Americans around data centers and the idea of them being built in their community and not wanting that. I'm curious what we're seeing, especially, you know, on your end, as someone who's paying attention to this issue, what we're seeing from industry and the federal administration in response to the opposition kind of in the general public and you know, what, what you see as what policymakers should be doing in response to this kind of general dissatisfaction and the kind of negative public opinion, what would be the appropriate response in this case instead of what we're seeing?
[00:22:29] Speaker A: I guess I'll answer that question in reverse order. You know, I think what we should be seeing is, you know, more democratic processes. So when I say that, I mean like more transparency into like where these data centers are being built, what impacts they're going to have on surrounding communities.
And you know, another aspect of democracy is more public participation, more abilities for, you know, just everyday residents to be able to voice their concerns, you know, and even stop a facility if it's not in the best interests of their communities.
So I feel like that's what we should be seeing, you know, in general for facilities, but especially with facilities that are dis. Unpopular, I believe 3/4 of Americans would disprove, you know, so you know, I think that would justify a more cautious and meticulous approach, more scrutiny.
But you know, instead, unfortunately what we see from the administration which is been working with industry of course is the exact opposite. We see these constant attempts to essentially fast track these facilities. So you know, the processes and protections we already have either being hand waved or ultimately just completely like dismantled in order to remove as many as what they perceive as barriers to these facilities being built.
So that's a lot of what you know, I and the federal office has to contend with. So bring up a specific example. Recently we worked with the Environmental Justice Leadership Forum to comment on a EPA proposal. And essentially what this proposal does is that most data centers are permitted under minor source rules for their air emissions. And what the EPA proposal said was essentially you no longer. States no longer need to require for these permits that there be a hearing or notice to the community.
So really just taking out both an intervention point for communities and also potential information points for communities to be alerted.
So I think that's a huge, that's a shining example of like a more procedural, maybe a bit more dry action that the administration is taking in order to essentially just limit transparency and limit avenues for the public to kind of get involved and provide scrutiny to these projects.
And yeah, I mean outside of that, we've seen these data centers granted exceptions under the National Environmental Policy act which would mandate that they have things like environmental reviews which you know, really should be a no brainer, especially given like the extensive power use and impacts these data centers could have as well as EPA expediating reviews for the forever chemicals that these data centers using their cooling systems. So I think unfortunately we've seen a administration taking a deregulatory approach or a very hands off let the industry kind of do what it will approach when all the dissatisfaction really indicates that they should be doing the opposite and providing more scrutiny.
[00:25:59] Speaker C: I appreciate that and like the you talking a little bit about some of the struggles and what should be done versus what is going on, especially at the higher level, the federal administration. But we do know that data center fights are hyperlocal, whether it be county or just the town that they're in that they want to be put in. And a lot of deceptive practices can go on sometimes. I've read there's so much coverage on these kind of data centers right now that stories are coming out in terms of companies, you know, shielding the fact that they're even building a data center and finding loopholes and permitting processes that are local bypassing, like you mentioned, environmental reviews. And also I think I heard something along the lines of signing NDAs with elected officials to make sure that they're not talked about. It can be kind of crazy. So if you're going through all of that trouble, the misbeh, something's not good and people are against it. And you talked a little bit about working with the Environmental Justice Leadership Forum and some of their local battles. So can you talk a little bit about what communities are doing to push back?
[00:27:00] Speaker A: Yeah, there's an extensive amount of organizing happening all across the country.
A lot of where we've seen communities intervene is when is through zoning ordinances, pushing their local elected to install moratoriums or even outright zoning bans on these data centers.
And yeah, I think we really do just see just a lot of, like, classic grassroots underground organizing showing disapproval to, you know, local electives and local officials. You know, the exact intervention points vary by where you are. Depending on where you are, there might be more or less legal avenues to intervene. But yeah, I think you're seeing it all across the country. You know, our Environmental Justice Leadership Forum has a data center working group that our organizing team works very hard with to just, you know, exchange tactics, information on, like, what works, what doesn't work, you know, research, as well as supply any resources that we can generate.
[00:28:11] Speaker B: I think that's just a general good thing for people to be aware of, that there is this effort to kind of push back.
I think it's easy for folks to kind of just feel a bit disenfranchised in general and just a little bit at a loss and just like accepting it for what it is. But knowing that there are other communities, that there are communities out there that are pushing back, that there are these local fights that are happening to keep data centers out of communities that are, again, as we've said several times already, already bearing the burden of other polluting facilities and. And things like that. And if you are listening and don't know if there's a data center being built in your community, maybe it's a good opportunity to do some research and try to see and get involved with any of these local fights if you're able to. But with that, we're getting near the end of our time. So I wanted to give you a chance to share, mention anything else that we didn't get a chance to talk about? Anything else that you think is relevant for folks that are curious about what's happening with data centers and anything else that you think is worth highlighting?
[00:29:09] Speaker A: Yeah. I would encourage people to check out our data center landing page on the WEAC website. It has our principles for data center development that we created earlier this year. It also has links to some resources that we've made with partners, including a policy toolkit that we contributed to Made by AI now and a model legislation toolkit that we recently collaborated with Rebuild Progress On.
And I'd also say look out for our story map on data centers and warehouses coming out soon. And that really tries to along the themes of this episode, really tries to demonstrate, you know, what happens when we dismantle protections and the build out of like we're building out industry, you know. So connects it to a case study of like the highway system and how our highway system boltos through black and brown neighborhood to be created and just kind of showing how that legacy persists today. So yeah, thank you for having me guys.
[00:30:21] Speaker C: Well that was awesome. Thank you so much Joseph. We appreciate you coming onto the podcast talking about Data center, especially giving us that high level overview. I'm sure this is not a fight that will be over anytime soon and there may be some updates or some new things that we may bring you back on the podcast to talk about later on. But again we appreciate you joining us.
[00:30:48] Speaker B: Thanks for listening. If you liked this episode, make sure to rate and review the show on whatever platform you listen on. If you have thoughts about the show or suggestions for topics you want us to discuss, we encourage you to reach out to
[email protected] also want to remind
[00:31:03] Speaker C: everyone Uptown Chats has a hotline where listeners can call in with questions they have about climate environmental justice. If you got a question, call 877-Uptown 6 that's 877-878-6966.
[00:31:16] Speaker B: Give us a call and check out react on Facebook Act 4 EJ that's W E A C T F O R E j on Instagram, bluesky and YouTube act4ej that's W E A C T number 4ej and check out our website weact.org for more information about environmental justice.
[00:31:36] Speaker C: Until next time.
[00:31:37] Speaker B: Bye.
