[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:18] Speaker B: Welcome to Uptown Chats, a podcast where we share stories about environmental justice by and for everyday people. I'm your co host, Jaron.
[00:00:25] Speaker C: And I'm your other co host, Lonnie.
[00:00:26] Speaker B: And. And today we have a bit of a lighter episode for you. We've covered some heavy topics so far this year, like the EPA rollbacks, challenges to New York's climate law, among other things. So we thought it'd be nice to take a step back from current events and explore how climate and environmental justice show up in pop culture. So a little bit of a fun episode, if you will.
[00:00:49] Speaker C: And to help us do that, we have a special guest. Keanu Michonne is here with us, a longtime member of we act and host of her own podcast, Climate with Kiana. So welcome, Kiana.
[00:01:00] Speaker A: Thank you so much for having me. L.J. and Jaron, it's such a pleasure to be here. I love we act.
We ACT has been instrumental in my life and career and a longtime fan of the pod, so a pleasure to be here.
[00:01:13] Speaker B: We're super happy that you're here, Kiana. We're excited to, like, jump into a really good conversation about climate, environmental justice, pop culture. But before we get into that conversation, Lonnie, can you share WEX mission? Yeah.
[00:01:24] Speaker C: Yes. W.E. act's mission is to build healthy communities by ensuring that people of color and low income residents participate meaningfully in the creation of sound and fair environmental health and protection policies and practices.
[00:01:36] Speaker B: All right, thank you, Lonnie. So, as we mentioned, our conversation today will be about how climate and environmental justice show up in pop culture. I think each of us did a little bit of homework and consumed some different media to get our creative juices flowing. But before we get into the details, I feel like it's always nice, nice to start at kind of a higher level, so maybe a good place to start. We can maybe try to unpack. How often do you feel like climate change and environmental justice get referenced in the media and in various forms of pop culture from your perspective or maybe somewhere else? Kiana, you're the guest. I know you have your own podcast, so let us know if there's somewhere else that you want to start this conversation.
[00:02:13] Speaker A: Yeah, I think I'd love to start just sharing a little bit about my connection to we act and a little bit more about my work, and then we can dive in some more and talk about storytelling and joy and media and environmental justice and how that impacts us and shapes this work. So, yes, I'm Kiana. I also go by Kiki and I do climate storytelling work and I work in solar. And I think I first, I'm like, how far back do I start?
Go all the way back. I mean, I think I've always loved nature and cared about the environment and slowly started to find my way into environmental activism. I think as early as middle school and then by high school much more strongly. I was in an environmental science class where I learned about climate change for the first time. And that really shaped my world view. And I was like, this is clearly the most defining work of our time. How do I get involved with this? And that sort of led me into being interested in clean energy. But I was in college doing coursework on environmental justice, but it was all still, you know, mostly through my academic work at that time. And I started kind of following we act's work and was just like, really excited. Like, We ACT is doing the work that I really care about and want to be in.
And I went to an event. Cecil was speaking on a panel. I met Cecil. I was like, I've been following we act's work. I want to get involved. And he was like, come by to the office.
And I did, and just kind of started interning immediately.
Wow.
[00:03:45] Speaker C: Yeah, that tracks very low.
[00:03:48] Speaker B: It's a very weak story.
[00:03:51] Speaker A: And I just think that we act, like, immediately felt like a family. I'm born and raised in New York City in Lower Manhattan. So not in northern Manhattan, but always spent a fair amount of time in the area as a New York City kid growing up.
So I just immediately loved the community energy and the way we act brings community together. And everyone was so welcoming. And I learned so much in my time here and have so many wonderful memories with Cecil too, that I'm very, very grateful for. And that was also kind of the start of my. My solar work. We ACT was just launching Solar Uptown now at the time, so I was very involved in that.
And then later, even after I interned, I came back and was involved with the Solar Workers Cooperative that you guys had starting up at that time. So I was working with that and I spoke to on a panel and led a couple workshops as part of the EJ Health and leadership training. You guys did around beauty justice. I've also done most of my work has been in solar, but I also have done some side stuff in beauty justice, which my interest in that just came from honestly being a young woman and wanting to use, like, personal care products and doing research and kind of being like, this is crazy. So I briefly worked for a clean beauty company. Anyways, so so that's always been kind of like a side interest.
And I recently joined a couple months ago the WEACT Vision Council. So was helping out with the last beauty justice event. So I feel like I've worked with. We act in different ways. I just am trying to remember all of them, like projects here and there. I pop in. But it's great to be on the Vision Council now.
Yeah. And I can talk a little bit about my solar work too.
[00:05:33] Speaker C: It's nice to have people who've been here for a while and engaging in the weActs work and really kind of understand and appreciate the mission. So we definitely appreciate you being here.
Now, why don't we have a podcast?
[00:05:44] Speaker B: And before you keep I do want to keep hearing a little bit more about your solo journey especially and more of your work, which seems like a lot. Just a quick plug for folks who aren't familiar with Cecil Corbin. Mark. We actually did have a podcast episode previously, so very instrumental key figure in WEX history. So anyone who here's that name and doesn't have the full context behind the work that he's done. So we'll make sure there's a link in the show notes for you to listen to that episode and hear more. But please continue.
Pick back up on this piece of your journey in life.
[00:06:15] Speaker A: Sure. I mean, now that you said that, can I say a few more words about Cecil? He was just such a bright light. I mean I think everyone who worked with him knows this, but he made everyone feel so welcome and seen.
No matter like me as an intern at the time to obviously everyone in the space.
I remember one time we had a meeting here and it went quite late and we got like locked into the building behind the gate. It was like me, Cecil, Charles, a couple other solar people.
We were like, do we climb over this gate?
[00:06:47] Speaker C: I've been there before.
No, my first week.
[00:06:52] Speaker A: Your first week? Incredible. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:06:54] Speaker B: Just like it's a rite of passage.
[00:06:55] Speaker A: It is, it is. You gotta get locked in the building.
Just many sweet memories of him, like showing his vacation photos and talking about his family and he was just so passionate about this work. And also as the solar work was getting started, he had like such a vision around that. And yeah, and it's great that we act is continuing to do all that work and yeah, also so grateful for Peggy as well. Anyways, really sidebar there.
[00:07:23] Speaker B: But now we got the gratitude out of the way.
[00:07:25] Speaker A: Gratitud. I'm so grateful.
[00:07:31] Speaker B: Hashtag grateful.
[00:07:32] Speaker A: Hashtag grateful.
[00:07:33] Speaker C: It's part of your journey. It's part of the start. Now you're going to talk about, you know, how we are inspiring by we act in the solar work to be in the solar work that you're in now. Right.
[00:07:41] Speaker A: But yes.
So the solar company I ended up working for first, I actually, I believe I met my boss while I was doing work with we act because we were having meetings with so many different people in solar and you know, I wanted to be kind of more on the technical side. So we kept in touch and I ended up going to work for her small solar engineering consulting firm which was cool as like a black owned solar company.
And I was doing utility interconnection, permitting, project management.
So kind of all the nitty gritty behind the scenes. Yeah. All this sexy behind the scenes of what it actually takes to get your solar project approved and turned on, which is frankly just a lot of paperwork.
[00:08:25] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. The unsung hero.
[00:08:29] Speaker C: More work than I think people go. So anytime you see a solar planet from now on, just know all of the work that goes behind it. And Kiana might be the person who permitted it.
[00:08:37] Speaker A: I mean to be fair, I'm not doing that anymore, the permitting specifically, but I did work on that for like hundreds of solar projects around New York City. And also like New York City is a very specific in terms of its building code and regulations. I mean solar in general as an industry is so regional like state to state and then even municipality to municipality. Like the, the regulations are really, really different. So depending on where you work, you're dealing with a whole set, different set of rules. Also depending on if you're working on like residential scale, cni, utility scale. Anyways from there I worked with kind of a handful of different solar companies on policy and project management and different things. Now I am freelance so I do kind of a bunch of things. The climate story is telling work which we're going to talk about today. And I am for the last while I've been working with a solar company. They are a newer smaller developer that's working specifically on agrivoltaics. Agrivoltaics is solar on agricultural land. Where the solar and agricultural is agriculture is co located in a way that is mutually beneficial. So instead of thinking about solar like displacement placing active farmland, you can actually have them working together. So there's three types of agrivoltaics which I imagine you will have heard of, one kind of it at least. But probably the most commonly known kind is sheep grazing. Right. When you have sheep grazing around the solar panels, it can be sheep, it can be cattle, it can be poultry, though goats are not great because they can chew through the wires.
[00:10:11] Speaker B: Oh, goats.
[00:10:11] Speaker A: Oh, goats, yes.
[00:10:13] Speaker B: So just eating the energy.
[00:10:17] Speaker A: But ye. So sheep, cattle and poultry grazing underneath and around solar panels is one type of agrivoltaics. It's quite popular. Believe it's the most popular in the U.S. right now. The agrivoltaics market is further along outside of the U.S. so we're a little bit more early stage here in terms of the number of projects happening throughout the country.
But for example, the sheep now are grazing, so you don't have to mow between the panels, which is an added benefit. And then also the sheep get to eat. So now the sheep farmer get revenue, the landowners get revenue. It's basically so you have. Yeah. The grazing and then you have pollinators. So that's where you just plant tons of pollinators around and under the solar panels. And then the third kind is crop agrivoltaic. So you grow crops underneath the panels. The panels create a microclimate, which then, you know, helps prevent against crop loss from extreme heat because you have a little microclimate, less evaporation from the soil.
[00:11:17] Speaker B: Interesting.
[00:11:18] Speaker A: Yeah. So it has a lot of like, climate resiliency benefits. It also, like, helps provide more shield from the wind.
So it's a really cool solution. And it also overall just can provide more economic stability to farmers because you have now like a guaranteed revenue stream from the power generated from the panels.
[00:11:36] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:11:37] Speaker A: So that's some of the work I'm doing there around partnerships and storytelling for agrivoltaics.
[00:11:45] Speaker B: Yeah.
While we're on this detour, I feel like before, before we get into the storytelling pieces, we've gone. We've gone far enough down this rabble that I'm like, I want to. I want to probe this one.
[00:11:54] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:11:54] Speaker B: A tiny bit more and then we'll transition. I'm curious from your perspective. You're working on this, working in the solar space for a while now. We're in a very different landscape right now.
[00:12:03] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:12:04] Speaker B: For solar incentives and just like the way people are thinking about wanting to implement solar. What's your, what's your take, I guess right now on. On the landscape and like how people are seeing, like wanting to move forward with projects and then having to deal with the reality of the different incentives and resources that are available out there to support that.
[00:12:23] Speaker C: It's okay to say the political reality that everyone's trying to attack solar and
[00:12:27] Speaker B: wind, to put it more concisely.
[00:12:30] Speaker A: Yeah, no, that's a great question. We're definitely in an extremely challenging political landscape and it's frustrating when we have such extremely clear technical solutions that will help us, you know, slow the climate crisis, protect communities, reduce local air pollution. And we had billions of dollars of investment in the last administration that all got pulled. You know, there's so many lawsuits going on.
All things I think you've discussed on the podcast before. But yeah, I think the reality is that clean energy makes economic sense and it's the direction that the world is moving in. Regardless of the different political regime changes. I think they can slow progress down, but they cannot stop it. There's a huge amount of private investment.
Even pre, you know, this shock to the system, there were still challenges, right. It's not like it was challenge free before. I think the supply chain for solar and wind is extremely global. Right. So, you know, I would work on projects where suddenly like a manufacturer would go out of business and now you have to like completely rework the economics of your project because the specific panels are you, you know, factored in, are no longer available. So I think there was always things like supply chain issues, permitting issues in different municipalities. Like, there was always have been challenges. But like, you know, solar and wind are at grid parity in so many places where it's just the, it makes, it is the economic sense. So of course all of the federal incentives being rolled back has, especially for wind, as we've seen, because, you know, offshore wind is something that requires a much greater level of government oversight and permit. There's like a lot more. It's a longer process to get those projects approved. So I won't wade too deep into that. Okay, that's a whole, that could be a whole other conversation.
But yeah, basically, yes, projects have been canceled and slowed down, but projects are still moving forward. We still have state level and city level incentives in many states. Of course, some areas are more hostile or more friendly to solar developers than other areas.
But even, I mean, look at a state like Texas, it's extremely red, but like there's a ton of solar and wind. Why? Because it makes economic sense.
[00:14:47] Speaker C: I think they're the largest producer of both.
[00:14:49] Speaker A: Yeah, the math.
[00:14:50] Speaker B: Maths.
[00:14:51] Speaker A: And so like you can't, you know, people care about money. Maybe that's not what motivates us necessarily in the work. I think one of the things I love about the environmental justice space is that like, people come to it from such a place of caring about each other. And I think that's really beautiful. The reality is when you get into the clean energy space, I think there, there's tons of people who care about climate and communities and you know, like I was saying agrivoltaics, I think a lot of the benefits are more about like, how does it help farmers or things like can community solar. And thinking about energy justice, which I know you've talked a ton about, like, yes, there is that human perspective which is so important. But the reality is a lot of developers are just about the bottom line and just about money and the bottom line is good.
So for the most part that definitely helps. Yes, there's still a ton of private investment and corporations are some of the, like, you know, think of your Amazon, Microsoft, Walmart. These companies are some of the largest procurers of clean energy in the country. Right. So they are essentially financing like large scale projects. I mean, even now there's a big conversation about like data centers, right. Being powered by solar. So the demand is there and it will continue to be there. It's just like slowed down or perhaps made the projects not quite as profitable if you had more federal incentives. But it's still happening and it's going to move forward. And I think the rest of the world also isn't going to slow down just because the US Is in whatever this hellscape is.
[00:16:17] Speaker C: Yeah, that's a good way to put it. Hellscape. Whatever this hellscape is.
[00:16:22] Speaker A: So I am, it's all moving forward and I'm confident that we will continue to have clean energy development regardless of the roadblocks. I mean, a conversation we're seeing now, I'm sure you've seen this think like Democracy now and other media outlets have been talking about this is actually that this, the oil crisis we're now facing because of the war with Iran might actually push us to clean energy faster. Because I mean, clean energy has always been better for energy security. Right. Because it can't get blockaded in the way that oil, oil and gas can.
So it's hard to say obviously what will actually happen because I feel like with the pandemic people thought like, oh, this is, could be the push. We're seeing like this level of global disruption and now we're having that in a different way. And that could push countries to invest more in clean energy, to have greater energy security and independence.
[00:17:16] Speaker B: Hopefully.
[00:17:16] Speaker A: Hopefully, yeah.
[00:17:17] Speaker B: Which two things? One, I think that a lot of people, when they hear a lot of the negative news about things at the federal level and about all these, you know, rollbacks and whatnot, There's a bit of the sense of, like, well, we're not doing anything. Like, things aren't moving forward. Like, things are full, fully stalled, but reminding people that things are still moving forward. The things that wind and solar, that are, again, the economical choice, regardless of these incentives, will move forward because they're the smart thing to do, both in terms of those financial decisions, but also just they're serving a purpose. But the other piece of that is I feel like that's actually feeding into unintentional segue into this idea that. Trying to capture that silver lining of trying to find in what feels like, for a lot of us, a challenging and difficult time, things to be optimistic about sometimes. Sometimes more hidden than others. But I'm gonna. I'm gonna take that as my. My full, full segue. Unless there's something else that you want to touch on first.
[00:18:13] Speaker A: Two really quick, more things. Yeah, I think that, yeah, I have a ton of optimism about the future of clean energy.
Some of the challenges that still exist are like, interconnection cues and like, these broader grid structures. Like, I'm in conversations every week. There's so many projects being developed, so that gives me optimism.
But we really need to stop new fossil fuel infrastructure from being built. Like, we need to stop all this expansion of gas infrastructure, because that's like, locking us into more emissions. So it's like, you know, I'm optimistic and it has to all be happening in tandem. And I think that's. That's the challenge now, especially seeing with all of these data centers, these conversations, like, the amount of proposed gas plants is, like, really alarming.
So, yeah, I think it's really a question of how can we both move on the solutions while also stopping the bad stuff from happening. And that's more challenging right now. But the solutions will keep moving forward, even at a slower pace.
[00:19:15] Speaker B: I know that we could spend all day getting into the weeds about some of these, you know, opportunities and challenges around, you know, clean energy technology. But I know that our original focus of the conversation is around, you know, storytelling, thinking about how climate, environmental justice show up in pop culture and in media. So with that said, I know that we had some different examples to highlight, to touch on, but also just to kind of unpack this notion, this idea of, you know, how we feel like climate, environmental justice gets referenced and shows up in pop culture and social media. So I kind of know if you wanted to start with any of your examples, Lonnie, if you were excited to jump into some of the things that you have noticed or observed or if you want to start somewhere else, sure.
[00:19:58] Speaker A: I'll just, I guess preface this by saying, yeah, I've always cared deeply about storytelling. I used to work with a storytelling focus, Climate Nonprofit, Climate Justice Storytelling focus Nonprofit, a couple years ago. That was kind of my intro into that work. And then I started my podcast because I felt like I was having all these amazing conversations with friends and colleagues in the environmental space. And then I'd go and speak with friends and family not doing this work, and they wouldn't know about these topics. And I'm like, there's so much incredible stories and information to share. So that's kind of why I started my podcast. And yeah, I recently, in the last couple months, started working with the Climate Film Festival, so also learning more about the storytelling space. And I'm exploring how I could expand my storytelling. And I think there's also such a need for it around clean energy.
But I know that we act has collabed with Climate Film Fest.
We recently had that screening on Solar Solutions, and you've done a couple screenings over the years. I think storytelling has always been an instrumental part of this work and also a part of both keeping people engaged and joyful and educational. And thinking back on my own journey in environmental work, I think there was tons of different stories and films and media that, like, shaped my environmental awareness.
So, I mean, the kind of running joke sometimes, like with friends or family when I want to, like, what do we watch? I'm like, why not this depressing environmental documentary?
I love learning, but it's like, oftentimes these stories are so sad.
[00:21:41] Speaker B: I feel like you probably get outvoted a lot, don't you?
[00:21:43] Speaker A: Yeah, but I've also. I have also gotten people to watch a lot of depressing environmental documentaries with me over the years. I'm proud of that. You should be.
Yeah. I think I'll just start. But I remember, I don't know how old I was, but when I was young, a relative gave me as a gift.
This is like pre. Pre streaming services.
Probably back when I think, like, Netflix was just like, DVD in the mail at the time, but Relative gave me, like, the box set of, like, David Attenborough Planet Earth, like the first series.
[00:22:13] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:22:14] Speaker A: And I feel like that was very meaningful to me as a kid. I mean, I think now, like, everyone loves nature documentaries, but it wasn't as much of a conversation.
[00:22:25] Speaker B: You were ahead of the curve, guys.
[00:22:27] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:22:27] Speaker B: I was so into media luminary.
[00:22:31] Speaker A: No, I think just to say that, you know, you have These moments where you, you see something and it like changes your perspective or broadens it and it feels foundational. And I think, yeah, we're in such a crazy moment in the world right now and it's like, how are we sharing the stories of what's happening and how will people look back and see the stories we're telling about what's going on? Anyways, I think there are a lot of incredible environmental stories in film and media, particularly documentaries and otherwise, but I think it is more limited when it comes to environmental justice. So I definitely want to chat about that a bit. But yeah, I'll pass it to one of you. Maybe just share media that's impacted you or been important.
[00:23:16] Speaker C: Yeah, I think it's interesting when you talk about like kind of people's connection becomes like a documentary that is extremely. Has a. It was before documentaries kind of changed and how they were. I'm thinking about like the Michael Moore's and the, you know, Sicko and like those kind of documents where it kind of changed a little bit more Shock factor than anything else or Super Size Me or those are the kind of things that you would watch in school. It's like, oh, this is a cool different type of documentary. I think a lot of it became like. Was very like Planet Earth and watching things about space and then learning about certain things where I.
Where I feel like it became like a very almost like factual. Here's what's happening, here's the thing. And you know, there's not much entertainment in that depending on what kind of person you are. I gotta be a nerd to really be into the entertainment aspect of like a documentary. But it's.
I think it's nice to see kind of when you think about climate and environmental things, to see it kind of almost on our everyday things that we watch and see or consume. And I'm always curious about like when I just working in this space where it just pops up and you're like, that was an environmental or climate reference. Or whether it be small or something that's there.
Like I was watching something not that long ago and they referenced COP And I was just like, that was random. This had nothing. Like the show or whatever had nothing to do with anything environment or climate. But they referenced someone going to, oh, I have a COP meeting that I'm going to be at the Climate International meeting.
So I've always thought of it as a newer kind of phenomenon to be able to recognize when there's environmental, climate justice that show up in pop culture itself. And I think a lot of it's really important talking about that because we talked a little bit about what was going on in some of the gloom and doom that goes on siding, how it shapes how people think. And I think narrative is extremely important in policy making. In politics, it's who controls the narrative kind of decides who decides they hate windmills for no reason. And then it's like, why do you hate them? It's because there's.
We did get you started. We might come back and have to finish that conversation. But it's the idea of like, oh, this is the narrative that is being built and this is what, you know, our whole conversation about CLCPA rollbacks and like this narrative that clean energy is going to make things more expensive or this transition is going to make things more expensive. And people latch onto narrative. And when you say something enough or when people hear things enough, they start to believe it. So I think that's where it becomes extremely powerful to tell those stories that are true, first of all, because that narrative was completely false. But also showing people, I think, the more positive aspects of what you get out of it, and even just sharing stories of if you were to share stories about farmers and how that impacts their work in the agriculture mixed with house solar and how that kind of connects, that's a different story than what you may hear when it comes to federal rollbacks or state rollbacks on these kind of things.
[00:26:05] Speaker A: Absolutely. I think narrative is critical when it comes to policy and when it comes to voting and how people choose to vote. Right. What narratives are they hearing?
And unfortunately, the fossil fuel industry pours so much money into trying to shape the narrative and in many ways they are successful. Like the example of a lot of the falsehoods about wind turbines, they say, oh, like it kills so many birds. Air pollution from the burning of fossil fuels kills more birds than wind turbines ever had. You know, like just all these just false narratives that get perpetuated. So we really need to counter that with narratives about what's actually happening.
I was at actually a climate film event last night and there was a panel and man, I'm forgetting who said this on the panel. So I'm sorry, but someone said that if someone has a story set in current day times and climate change isn't a part of it, that that's science fiction.
And I was like, that's an interesting reframe. Yeah, right. Because it's so. Yeah. I mean this, these are the times we're living in and how are we addressing that in stories Both fictional and nonfiction. Right. Like both important medias to get people thinking about what's going on and how we're addressing it.
[00:27:32] Speaker C: And I've also seen, like, I feel like when we talk about climate and environmental justice in that space, kind of to Jaron's kind of original kind of question about pop culture and how it shows up, I always think it's. It's always apocalyptic or dystopian or like somewhere set in a future where there is a lot of things going on, where there's like, you know, all these kind of crazy inventions and new things going on, but it's always set in some type of extreme future instead of, you know, just being like, like you just said this. Right now we're experiencing what we're experiencing right now. And it's always like a, a big event or something that has happened in the future. And here we are in this place and we have to figure something out. And I always thought that was an interesting way of always approaching climate or like, whether it be day after tomorrow, right?
[00:28:13] Speaker B: Where it's like, it's the same movie
[00:28:14] Speaker C: I was thinking about.
[00:28:15] Speaker B: I'm so glad that you said that.
[00:28:16] Speaker A: I feel like someone brought that up in an episode of my podcast previously that came up.
Yeah, I mean, with AI right now, it does feel like with AI and the rise of authoritarianism, it feels like we're living in this sci fi novel. Like, there's so many stories where I'm like, yeah, that feels like what, what's happening? But I know you wanted to talk about extrapolations. I feel like that's a good example.
[00:28:42] Speaker C: Thanks for listening. If you liked this episode, make sure to rate and review the show on whatever platform you listen on. If you have thoughts about the show or suggestions on topics you want to discuss, we encourage you to reach out to
[email protected] I also want to remind
[00:28:54] Speaker B: folks about our Uptown Chats hotline, which where listeners can call in with questions they have about climate and environmental justice. Got a question? Call 877-Uptown 6. That's 877-878-6966.
[00:29:09] Speaker C: Check out We act on Facebook at We act for EJ. That's W E A C T F O R e J Instagram, bluesky and YouTube weact4ej. That's we a C T number 4ej. And check out our website weact.org for more information about environmental justice.
[00:29:26] Speaker B: Until next time,
