[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:17] Speaker B: Welcome to Uptown Chats, a podcast where we share stories about environmental justice by and for everyday people. I'm your co host Jaron and sadly Lonnie is out sick today, so instead I'll be joined by Jama Joseph, who's a weak communications associate. Welcome Jama.
[00:00:34] Speaker C: Hello Jaron. Thank you for having me.
[00:00:36] Speaker B: Of course. So today we're talking about two overlapping technologies that you may be familiar with, geothermal energy and thermal energy networks. Speaking for myself, I assumed they were the same thing, but was pleasantly surprised to learn that they are in fact different technologies that work really well together.
[00:00:54] Speaker C: I'm guessing that's why we often see see them together and maybe why folks think of them being the same thing.
[00:01:01] Speaker B: Yeah, I will. Thank you J for thinking of an excuse for me. Let's go with that. We'll say that that is the the truth. But before we actually dive into our episode, can you share we mission?
[00:01:12] Speaker C: Sure. We act mission is to build healthy communities by ensuring that people of color and low income residents participate meaningfully in the creation of sound and fair and environmental health protection policies and practices.
[00:01:26] Speaker B: Thank you Jama.
So as I mentioned, today we're talking about geothermal energy and thermal energy networks with help from John Furlong, who is the clean Buildings Campaign Manager at the New York League of Conservation Voters, or nylcv.
[00:01:42] Speaker C: Before we jump into our interview with John, we thought it would be helpful to give some background about geothermal energy and thermal energy networks for folks who are less familiar with those technologies, like.
[00:01:52] Speaker B: Jaron and I think it's a good idea. Let's start with one with the one that most of us are probably more familiar with, which is geothermal energy.
[00:02:02] Speaker C: Geothermal energy is a type of renewable energy that relies on relatively constant temperature of the ground near the Earth's surface, which sits between 50 and 60 degrees Fahrenheit. Geothermal energy also includes hot water and stream reservoirs beneath the Earth's surface that can be accessed by drilling.
These different types of geothermal reservoirs can be used in different ways. For example, a utility can access the hot water and steam from reservoirs using pipes to run generators and produce electricity for its customers. That energy can also be used directly to heat and cool homes and other.
[00:02:39] Speaker B: Buildings, exactly which is where thermal energy networks, or tens as they're called, come in. And thermal energy networks use a shared network of pipes, usually filled with water, that transfer heat in and out of buildings. And those pipes connect multiple buildings in a neighborhood to exchange or move heat from one place to another. And tens can also utilize geothermal energy by connecting those pipes to boreholes, which are essentially just deep vertical holes drilled into the earth that can capture and store excess heat underground for use days or even months later.
[00:03:17] Speaker C: Thermal energy networks rely on heat pumps to move energy, which are super efficient and rely on electricity instead of fossil fuels. That means they can be used for heating and cooling and don't produce greenhouse gas emissions or local. Local air pollution. One of these things we discussed with John in our interview is how thermal energy networks can support a just transition by creating union jobs, particularly for workers in the utilities and buildings trades who may be displaced by shifts away from natural gas. Here in New York, over $200 million was allocated in the 2026 budget for thermal energy networks as part of Governor Hochul's Sustainable Futures program.
[00:03:59] Speaker B: All that to say geothermal energy and thermal energy networks are definitely going to be a part of New York's energy transition.
So, speaking of transitions, why don't we go ahead and jump into our interview with John to learn more?
[00:04:13] Speaker C: First, just a quick note that we use the terms geothermal energy and thermal energy networks somewhat interchangeably in our interview with John, but hopefully this background helps provide some clarity.
[00:04:25] Speaker B: Thank you, Jama. Now let's go ahead and jump into our interview.
[00:04:29] Speaker C: Let's do it.
[00:04:37] Speaker A: Well, thank you so much for joining us, John. We're super excited to have you on.
[00:04:40] Speaker B: This episode of the podcast.
[00:04:41] Speaker A: And we've got a really fun topic.
[00:04:43] Speaker B: That I feel like, you know, people.
[00:04:46] Speaker A: Are vaguely aware of, but maybe don't get into the weeds on a whole lot, and that's geothermal energy. So we're excited to hopefully get a little bit more into the weeds on that. Not too far, not super technical. We still, you know, we're going to.
[00:04:57] Speaker B: Try to keep it accessible for folks.
[00:04:58] Speaker A: Who don't really live and work in the energy space, but just want to know more. So before we get too far in, do you mind just giving us a brief introduction of yourself and your role?
[00:05:07] Speaker D: Sure, sure. Well, again, my name is John Furlong, and I'm the clean Buildings Campaign manager at the New York League of Conservation Voters. I've been in my role for about two years, so this is actually a really good exercise for me, too. I spent almost 20 years doing tenant and community organizing with, with some housing organizations around the city and some development work. So this is really, this is new territory for me. It's in me. It's new and it's old. It's. It's still housing and it's still buildings, but it's sort of a, a brand new space. I live uptown. I live at 148 in Amsterdam with my wife and my two daughters. We love it up here. So we're also like really happy to be kind of close to the we act office and just making kind of neighborhood connections all the time.
[00:05:52] Speaker A: What is the history of geothermal energy and geothermal network in New York? Because I know just from my experience of hearing different stories kind of pop up here and there of different developments wanting to like put it in.
But then you have to ask yourself, is this, you know, classic example of like greenwashing? They're just saying, oh yeah, we're going to do this thing. And they have, they have never looked into it or other actual places where it's been tested out or being implemented already in the city.
[00:06:17] Speaker D: Yeah, no, it's another. That's great. I mean the shorter answer is no, right? At the scale that we're talking about in New York City, it is not, you know, we've looked at it, we've researched it, we know about it. It has not been implemented at scale yet.
People have electrified their homes on a house to house basis and put in heat pumps and you know, done all that kind of envelope work to make it, to make them efficient. But in terms of, so I live, right, I live in a co op, I live in an HDFC co op. We have 13 buildings in the co op. It's 133 units. Those types of geothermal projects where we're trying to, you know, to do hydronics and heated cool multifamily buildings using that technology has not, has not been implemented yet. NYSERDA is, you know, they, they're looking at this all the time. You know, obviously the, the governor's offices is looking very closely at this. So I'm just gonna segue a little bit into our work as, as part of the upgrade. Your collaboration, I mean we're partnering with other environmental justice groups with you guys, you guys are in this collaboration as well, other policy groups. But the most important ingredient in our, in our, in our little, in a little band talking about geothermal is, is labor unions. Right? Labor unions are all about this. The pipe trades are all about this. The steam trades are all like the pipe fitters. The steam fitters. Because if, if we get big ticket projects to come online, you know, like, like the ones I'm going to talk about in a moment, you know, these are shovel ready projects. Their members get work right away and everybody wins. And then there's just a really big Push for, to like really build up these apprenticeship programs as a way into, you know, really solid, viable middle class jobs. There are about 13 utility pilots being explored right now by the various utilities to do thermal energy. And then we are really trying to, we as the Upgrade collaboration are really trying to push the state to decarbonize their own building portfolios first because this is really, it's not a known technology, right. I think going back all the way to the beginning of your question, where is, where else has this been done? It's been done in Europe where, you know, this is like we have a guy that we work with, JP Flaherty, who works at some big house, I forget which now, but he was like, yeah, I went to some of our offices in Europe and like this is, you know, they've had this stuff for years. There are entire communities I think in the Netherlands that have, you know, that have brought this stuff online.
Maybe even 20, don't quote me on this, like, you know, probably even 20 or 30 years ago. We're just looking at it now. You know, obviously in 2019 we passed the Climate Leadership and Community Protection Act. That was a set of goals how we're going to get to, you know, to carbon neutral by 2040.
Our building sector contributes about 70 to 75% of our carbon footprint. So you know, we got to get on this fast.
This is the way to do it and to do it at scale and to, and to do it really big picture. So what we're pushing, what Upgrade is pushing for within the, the state owned building sector is, is SUNY campuses, right? Think, think ccny, think SUNY Purchase, think Buffalo. I mean these, these campuses are like little cities, right? And they are independently run and they're independently governed. They can make their own decisions about how they power themselves. And so we in, in last budget session, the budget session before that, been really, really pushing the state in its capital budget to allocate money to do to really get these projects off the ground. They're all engineered out, they're ready to go. It would make, you know, they would they again, like as I said, the unions are ready. They need a project labor agreement to, you know, to, to get that work off the ground. But that's, that's kind of a formality. But really we want to really lift up these campus projects to show the general public hey, this technology really works, it's viable, it's good for everybody. And then I think move on to really look at decarbonizing other neighborhoods and communities at scale.
[00:10:23] Speaker E: I Think it's so fascinating. I feel like a theme to. When we talk about some of these renewable energy solutions that we like to see here for environmental justice communities.
It's always, well, Europe has been doing this for a while. We had that in our heat pump episode. We've had it in other things. We're talking about solar and scaling a solar. It's like, well, you know, they've been scaling these things or they've been working on these things for a while. But it always seems very new to Americans. It's like this. What's this new thing? Or it's always, it's either the excitement or it's the fear. Right. It's like, well, this isn't natural gas. I don't know what this is. So it makes me nervous. But it sounds like, you know, we've researched it. Like you said, we've got labor involved. We have what I would call like economic will, some political will and some social will to, to do this and to scale it up. So I guess my question is what, what's keeping it all up? Like what's holding it all up? What are the barriers to?
[00:11:12] Speaker D: Yeah, I mean that's a great question, Lonnie. I think, I mean, I think, I think two things. I mean a, I think cost, upfront cost is, is a major barrier. You know, and when we, when I go and testify, when we have, you know, lobby meetings about this, we talk to legislators like how much is it going to be? It costs a lot of. It's, it's, it's not a, you know, it's not a neutral act. The long term savings far outweighs that, that, that upfront cost. However, that's one thing. And I think you hit on a really, really important point a moment ago when you, when you said it's, it's the unknown, right? It's fear of the end. Like people, you know, we talked, you know, we, we talked to people about, you know, scaling back the gas system and actually putting resources into non pipe alternatives and to, rather than replacing leap prone pipe, maybe you put in a thermal engine.
It's, it's just really, it's. Yeah, people know what they know and it's hard to kind of get them, get them to sort of pivot and shift away from something that's, that's, you know, that's reliable and it's, it's. Yeah. As a known entity. There's a great segment that News 11 did where Con Edison basically electrified this woman's home up in Mount. Like I think Close to Mount Vernon. And she was like, this is great. And they came in and they did it, they did it. It didn't cost me a dime. You know, here's what I'm gonna save. And we just. Those stories of people being that ecstatic, ecstatic about home electrification and the technology are few and far between. So I think there's also like, yeah, there's some, some debunking that needs to happen and just a lot of public education and awareness. There needs to be, I think from my money, in terms of some of the utility projects, like a lot more community outreach and engagement and talking about what it would mean and what it does and what it doesn't do. But I think, yeah, I think those sort of the two prongs, it's sort of like cost and education. And then, you know, if you want to take a little bit of a, a deeper dive, I mean, for us in New York City, it's like this is a really dense environment, right? And there's buildings that are brand new sitting next to buildings that are 100 years old.
And so retrofitting buildings, putting hydronic systems in that could carry the water to the heat, like, that's a, that's, that's a huge challenge. And so we need to figure that, you know, not only do we need to figure out like, where could we put a, it's called a 10, we call them tens, thermal energy network. Where can we put a 10? But also like, how much, to what degree does this neighborhood need to be pre electrified? To what degree do we need to do the building envelope work? Where is that money going to come from? So there's, there's, there's lots of, there's some logistical pieces that need to get figured out on that and that, that are also, that I think also present a barrier.
[00:14:05] Speaker E: Yeah. One quick comment before, before Jaron, please. It's just, I appreciate the use of the term like upfront cost. Right. I think people forget also that the fossil fuel network that we use now also required a lot of upfront cost that was very expensive to build out pipe networks and lines and drill and also get people trained to do any of that work. So when people talk about the cost and how expensive something is, I was like, well, it's also, it's getting costlier to maintain a system, a fossil fuel system, and where we can just use that money and invest into something that's cleaner, greener, healthier for everyone, for environment, for people.
So I just always want to make that point that out that you Know people, cost is always going to be a barrier and it's kind of always like we just need to be able to put the investments in the right spaces because we've done it before in places that we, that we've realized now that those weren't good investments that we should have made in the long term.
But things like geothermal is something that is definitely going to give that return far down the line 100%.
[00:15:10] Speaker D: 100%. Yeah. I couldn't agree with you more. We have the money to do costs $6 million per mile to maintain the gas system. That's $60,000 per rate payer. I think my good friend in your office, Andy Carforo knows this stuff backwards and forwards and she actually came on. I did a, we did a little online thing, it's called a Lunch and Learn, which is like a similar format. It's just like an hour of us talking about a particular policy issue. But she was instrumental in debunking some of those myths about costs. And it's again, you made such a great. We have the resources which is how we're choosing to deploy them and where we're spending the money.
[00:15:51] Speaker A: We love Annie. Annie's been on the podcast a couple of times and we tap into her wisdom any chance that we get.
[00:15:58] Speaker D: So, and, and just not to get us off track, I mean but we, you know we, Annie and I went to Vancouver in November this and the city of Vancouver has, I mean like we, we toured at least like half a dozen sites where there and, and areas of the city where there are thermal energy networks of all. Of all kinds.
[00:16:15] Speaker A: So yeah, which is great because they are also a, you know, relatively northern city. So thinking about the climate of, of New York, probably comparable energy demand in terms of heating during the wintertime, maybe even a little bit more up there.
[00:16:26] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:16:27] Speaker A: But yeah, that's, that's. We can never stress enough the, the important piece of cost. And I feel like, you know, one thing that came up that you mentioned that resonates with, you know, something that we heard when we talked about solar is just. Yeah. That we are in a time of thinking about tight budgets, you know, and trying to manage. Manage budget constraints. And so when you, there's technology that is a long term great, you know, cost effective investment. We should be thinking about that very seriously. And also the other, the other thing that you mentioned that that kind of touches on this theme that we're kind of spreading throughout this mini series is the point about labor and about you know, thinking about adjust energy transition how can we bring folks along in the process and if there are folks who are trained to do these things and they building out the workforce to do that. So I, I appreciate you mentioning those things. One thing that I think to explore more with you is thinking about how the tens. I'm going to start using that terminology, it sounds cooler. Fits into the larger conversation. Obviously we talked a little about some of the logistics for New York City specifically and we mentioned some of the other technologies that we've talked about in this mini series so far. But thinking about kind of holistically, we know that solar has a big part to play in New York City and reducing greenhouse gas emissions and making communities more resilient.
How does, how do geothermal energy systems or geothermal network kind of fit into this larger puzzle? You know, it's going to take a little bit of everything, I think, to really address the climate crisis here in New York City. But how does it kind of fit into that, that larger, that larger conversation?
How can it kind of complement some of that, those other technologies as we're kind of making these upgrades citywide?
[00:18:08] Speaker D: Yeah, that's a great question. Yeah. I mean it's, it is, it's gonna, it's gonna take for us to reach our goals, right. Like we need a plan and this is part of the plan. It's not the whole plan, obviously. And it's going to take a little bit of everything. I think that, I think for me, when I think about it and, and going kind of. And I'll go back to the big. The example I gave you at the beginning when you said, well, since this been done.
And our reply was, well, it really hasn't been at this scale. I think it's really about accessibility.
Right. And putting our money where our collective mouths are to make this accessible. Because right now it's. The people that have heat pumps are not people that live around me and like, and live, you know, in this neighborhood, quite frankly, it's like individual homeowners that were able to use their own resources to electrify their homes. Right. So it's, it's not, I think we really.
To really open the door.
I think it's, it's about. And to make our communities more resilient. Again, it's, it's about education. Right. People just know about it and, and what they're, they're getting into. But, but really, I think really putting some resources and dollars into accessibility. And how can small landlords or, you know, folks that own, you know, two or three billions in the Bronx or two or three buildings in Brooklyn. Like how can they get the capital, the upfront capital to do all the pre electrification work and then if they, and then, you know, and then tap into a thermal energy network because once the, once the pipes are in the ground it actually, it's not, it's not a huge, you know, the way I understand it, it's not a huge deal to link up with, with, with an existing network.
It's really getting, it's really getting the, the older buildings ready to not, you know, hemorrhage hot and cold air when the system is online. So I, I really, I think accessibility, I really, I really think accessibility and, and making this some, a technology that everybody can enjoy and that everybody can benefit from. Does that make sense?
[00:20:20] Speaker A: Yeah, that makes sense. I mean I'm glad you circle back to the old, old buildings piece because that's something I was, I was kind of curious about. It's a bit of a tangent but I'm just thinking about, you know, in our conversation about solar, one of the things that came up is that you know, you have to think about what's the age of the roof, you know, when you want to put solar on a building. Like how well is the roof is there, is there comparable, like similar challenges? I know we talked about challenges a little bit but like things that are limitations. You. If a building wants to put in a thermal energy system.
[00:20:46] Speaker D: Yeah, I mean it would be, it would be, it would be the building. Yeah, it's be the envelope. It'd be the envelope is how, how well is the building air sealed? You know, I'm looking, I'm sitting in my living room looking at my windows. My windows are old. Old. We need, you know, we need new windows. Every, every building with black needs new ones.
[00:21:01] Speaker A: But like.
[00:21:02] Speaker D: Yeah, what's, what, what's the building envelope? How will, how efficient is it? You know again like. Yeah, installation, air sealing, that, those, those things really, really, really matter.
Yeah.
[00:21:14] Speaker A: Theoretically are things that we need to do anyway. Right. It doesn't matter of like there wouldn't be before so that, you know, we can put these systems into.
[00:21:23] Speaker D: Yeah. And it's, and it's, you know, when we were the, the. I'll go back to the event, I'll go back to my comment about Vancouver. Vancouver is a pretty new city.
New York is. It's, that's, it's.
There's not a whole lot of land to build on here anymore. I mean there used to be a little bit more but like it's just, it doesn't, you know, we're not building tons and tons and tons of new stuff. It's really, it's, it's a lot of retrofits and a lot of, you know, going back and kind of, you know, erasing something here and there in terms of, you know, passive house techniques to get it up to snow. So it's, we're really, that, that is our challenge. And how do we, how do we meet that challenge in terms of the different ages of buildings and the infrastructure that's under them and around them?
[00:22:08] Speaker E: I'm so glad you actually brought up the kind of the, the idea of pre electrification. Right. I think that's part of this work too, that I think sometimes doesn't get maybe talked about enough.
A lot of the advocacy that we do does focus on this piece as well as how do we prepare our buildings and our older building stock, especially in New York or New York, throughout New York City and New York State. I mean, honestly, if you look at some of the urban areas are some of the oldest in the, in the country, and how do we prepare those buildings to, to be electrified and for us to move on, move forward.
And I think a lot of people don't, I think, see this, the work that we do and kind of the advocacy for this work is very linear when it's actually not. We're advocating for all of it at the same time. So let's get these, let's get these tens. I like the phrase two tens.
I feel like I can officially use that phrase now. Like, let's get these tens online. Let's get solar going. Let's ramp up, let's put in the money in the investment. But at the same time, let's, on this other end, let's go through some of these buildings that need upgrading and updating to be able to receive these things. Let's remediate, you know, environmental health hazards that are in people, homes and units, change the windows up. Let's get rid of lead, mold, asbestos, all of those things. And so I think it's really important that we, that we talk about, you know, pre electrification is also happening at the same time as electrification.
So I think the misnomer there is the pre electrification and let's, and let.
[00:23:31] Speaker D: You know, let's assess. We need to assess everybody. You know, we need to assess our energy consumption. We need to assess our energy usage. Yeah, I think, I think that's a really important part. But politically, this needs to be for everybody. This needs to be for everybody. We have to, you Know, can we, you know, we really need to look at ways that we can. Again I'm going to go back to that word accessibility. But like how can we make this for everybody? Can we create a city, you know, a building fund, a revolving fund where, you know, where folks that may not have that upfront capital to do some of this stuff can, can access it and move forward. So I think, yeah, that's our homework.
[00:24:09] Speaker A: I think that's a good segue to. You mentioned a little bit earlier some of the work that's going on to help advocate for some of these technologies and both NY LCV and we ACT and other partners. Do you want to speak a little bit more to any of that work that's going on to help move this work around tens or geothermal energy or any of the other energy stuff forward? I know a lot of times like Lonnie said, it's kind of bundled. We're doing a lot of all at the same time. But give you a chance to speak on any of that if there's any things you wanted to mention.
[00:24:36] Speaker D: Sure. I mean, you know. Yes. So I mean again there's a, there's a bill out there called New York Heat which we've been, you know, which we've been really, our two organizations been really, really involved in trying to get over the finish line in state government. But basically what I try to frame it for legislative. This, it's a planning bill. Right. It's. We're not trying to take people's gas stoves away from them but what we're trying to do is again like gradually scale down the gas system in ways that, that make sense for everybody. So again if you have, if you have a section of leak prone pipe over here, can you replace that with a thermal network or a non pipe alternative? Can you take the resources that you're using to fix an old broken system and put it into new technology thereby reducing bills for ratepayers.
That's one thing. And then, and then I think another thing we, we haven't mentioned in all this is like is the health benefits. Right. We're not using you know, natural gas in our homes. And, and you know, and again like what, what that you know what that environmental impact is. But, but New York Heat is, is really critical.
It's like the, the key, it's a very big part of the key to opening up a lot of these other neighborhood scale system. So we have to lessen our dependence on natural gas and again like redirect some of these resources into into non pipe alternatives. That's, that's one part.
There is, there is a bill out there, I think that is, was introduced by Senator Sean Ryan who is up in Buffalo to do kind of neighbor. It's aimed at doing neighborhood scale pre electrification work and that would allow rather, again, like, rather than on a building by building basis, you're doing, you're doing entire projects that would encompass many, many buildings using union labor to do a lot of the pre electrification work, that building envelope work that would need to happen in advance of a thermal energy network. But we have some pretty arcane policy when it comes to our utilities. And so, you know, we're trying to sort of change utility and public service law that's been on the books for a really long time that says, you know, utilities have to serve gas to people. And that's. Yeah, that's been a tough nut to crack.
[00:26:55] Speaker E: Yeah, we are, we're very familiar with New York Heat in on this podcast as well. And yes, Annie is the guru when it comes to talking about it.
But no, I, I like that kind of visualization for me of this idea of scaling up can also include scaling down or you can scale down as you scale up. Right. So yeah, and I guess I've never really visualized it that way, but it's true. I think a lot of people think that scaling up means that whatever system's in the place just stays there until we've gotten this whole other system built and then everything kind of switches over as opposed to it being like as one phases out, you scale up the other.
[00:27:34] Speaker D: Yeah, but politically that, what you just mentioned, that speaks to the money question.
Because when we first were, like when we first were talking to people about, you know, New York Heat in conjunction with thermal energy, they're like, wait a minute, are you going to take, do you need all new money for this thing over here? I'm like, no, no, you don't need all new money for this thing over here. You take the money that you were using and you, you know, you just redirected into this other thing and it's, you know, that has tended to resonate a lot with legislators. And then, you know, you, there's again, there's, if you ended something called the 100 foot rule today, you'd automatically save ratepayers. You'd save people money by starting to make this transition.
[00:28:14] Speaker A: Always a theme across all of our episodes.
Money, it always comes back to that. And anytime we think about things that can both benefit the environment and save people money, that's a win, win. And I think that politically that is a huge selling point, especially here in New York where, like I mentioned before, we're thinking about budget, budget constraints and all that stuff. But also a state like New York that's really upfront in terms of leading a lot of the climate action for here in the US Honestly. So threading those needles and win, win. So before we wrap up, I want to give you a chance to touch on anything else, mention anything else that you wanted to talk about that we didn't have a chance to get to any of the plugs you want to make about work that you're doing or things, the great things that, you know, are going on, anything like that, you.
[00:29:01] Speaker D: Know, I would be remiss if I didn't, you know, mention. So I mean, a large part of what we do at NYLCD is, is we make endorsements.
We, we endorse candidates that, you know, that are out there voted, you know, voting on and voting in favor of good environmental policy. So, I mean, I just, I would just, you know, as we have mayoral elections coming up, as we have, you know, I know our governor that's coming up for election, you know, in the not too distant future, I would just really, I think, encourage folks to really, really, really take a hard look at, you know, environmental records and voting records and make that like a, just get out there and vote. But really, really the environment is something you care about. You know, make a candidate choice with those things in mind.
And we have, we have a scorecard. We score council members, we score, you know, our state legislator on their voting records with concern, you know, with regard to the environment. And if you want to look at that, we have our, I think our scorecard is on our website. But you should, you know, folks should go and check that out as we're moving through this, this political season with, you know, with the new mayor and then a new government.
[00:30:11] Speaker B: Thanks for listening. Don't forget to check out the last episode in our Right Direction miniseries coming out on June 30, where we reflect on some of the lessons that we learned throughout this very fun miniseries.
[00:30:23] Speaker C: I can't wait. If you like this episode, make sure to rate and review the show on whatever platform you listen on. If you have thoughts about the show, we encourage you to reach out to us with your thoughts and
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[00:30:38] Speaker B: Check out React on Facebook at react4ej. That's W E A C T F O R E JJ on Instagram, Bluesky and YouTube @react4ej. That's WEAct number 4ej. And check out our website, react.org for more information about environmental justice.
Until next time.
