[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:17] Speaker B: Welcome to Uptown Chats, a podcast where we share stories about environmental justice by and for everyday people. I'm your co host, Jaron.
[00:00:24] Speaker A: And I'm your other co host, Lonnie.
[00:00:26] Speaker B: And today we are building on one of our previous episodes about peaker plants to talk about an emerging technology that you may have heard about. That's battery energy storage systems, or bess. It's a bit of a mouthful and some of you may have heard it referred to as battery storage for short.
[00:00:45] Speaker A: To help us explore this topic, we'll be joined by Aliya Sumaro, Deputy Director of New York City Policy at the New York League of Conservation Voters.
[00:00:51] Speaker B: That's right. But before we jump into our interview with Alia Lonnie, can you share WEAC's mission?
[00:00:56] Speaker A: Always. WEAC's mission is to build healthy communities by ensuring that people of color and or low income residents participate meaningfully in the creation of sound and fair environmental health and protection policies and practices.
[00:01:07] Speaker B: Thank you, Lonnie. So, as I alluded to, our topic today builds on an episode we released last month where we spoke with U. Of Osper, WEAC's senior policy advisor, about peaker plants, which as a refresher are major sources of pollution in New York City and also drive up energy costs during the summer as a really inefficient method of producing energy during times of peak demand, like during the summer when lots of people are running their air conditioners.
[00:01:37] Speaker A: Our episode today will build nicely off of that conversation, so if you've not listened to it already, I suggest you check it out.
We will make sure to include the link in the show notes for you
[00:01:46] Speaker B: and for anyone not familiar with battery energy storage systems, again, best for short, Alya will provide a pretty thorough overview. So without much further ado, let's go ahead and jump into our interview with her.
[00:02:00] Speaker A: Yeah, let's go do it.
[00:02:09] Speaker B: All right, well, thank you so much for joining us, Alia. We're super happy to have you on this episode of the podcast and it's crazy that we've taken this long to have you on the show. But you know what? Today's the day we made it happen and we're excited to talk to you today about battery energy storage systems, which is a mouthful, but we're going to unpack it a little bit more for folks that are unfamiliar with that term and that technology. But before we get to that, do you mind just giving us a quick introduction of yourself?
[00:02:35] Speaker C: Yeah, well, thanks for having me on the podcast. I really appreciate it. I'm Excited to talk to you all about battery energy storage systems. I'm Ali Asumaro. I'm the Deputy Director for New York City Policy at the New York League of Conservation Voters. NYLCV is a statewide environmental advocacy organization.
I focus on New York City climate and environmental policy. So the topics that I touch upon range from zero waste to buildings to battery energy storage and transit and parks. So it's very wide ranging. But I'm excited to talk and go more deeply into battery energy storage systems.
[00:03:14] Speaker A: Yeah, we're so excited to have you on. I had the pleasure of working with Alia all the time. We were like joined at the hip at one point when I was, when I was New York City Policy manager. So anywhere Alia was, I was, and vice versa. So it's awesome to be able to have you actually on the podcast.
So let's just dive right in. I think a lot of people need that just high level understanding of what battery energy storage systems are, or BESS is what we can probably call it from going forward for the podcast. But can you just give us a high level explanation of what it is?
[00:03:45] Speaker C: Yeah. So like LJ just said, battery energy storage systems, or bess, at a very high level, they are devices that store electricity produced at one time and so it could be used later. So BESS enables especially clean energy sources like renewables, solar and wind to be more dependable. BESS can store extra electricity produced when the wind is blowing the hardest or the sun is brightest, and then it could be later released when the power is needed most, especially during peak demand, like during summer months when everyone's like running their AC units or even during winter months when everyone's like at home using a lot of energy.
So how it works is large scale bests use rechargeable technologies.
Most commonly they're lithium ion batteries to capture and hold energy.
There's like smart software and control systems that can decide like when to charge, for example, like when there's abundant wind and solar and when to discharge that energy when it's needed most during peak demand.
There's different scales of bess. So battery energy storage could be used for residential buildings, like for backup power, let's say like when the power goes out during a hurricane or a storm. Battery energy storage could also be used for commercial businesses and it could also be used at like the bulk scale to help with grid decarbonization and providing regional grid reliability and helping with electricity reliability.
[00:05:22] Speaker B: Thanks for that high level understanding. I think that it's an emerging technology and I think that there's a growing familiarity and understanding of what Bess is and everyone, I think most people kind of relate it back to just regular batteries. Okay, explain how is this different or the same from a regular battery that I use at home? And I feel like you cover that well. But one thing I know that is also coming up for a lot of folks in this time where this technology, technology is being deployed as concerns around safety.
So I would be curious if you can unpack that, provide a little bit more context about validity or just some of the context around what potential safety concerns people have around the technology and how much that's showing up in the work that you're doing.
[00:06:09] Speaker C: Yeah. So first off, when we talk about battery energy storage systems and at nylcv, we really try to hone in on it is a new technology and we understand if people have questions and concerns about new technologies. So we try to get the facts and the information dispersed because it's really important that we not conflate Bess with other technologies.
So, for instance, over the past several years in New York City especially, there have been a lot of fires that have been caused by batteries that power electric bikes, scooters and mopeds. So while some of those E bike batteries have passed like rigorous standard based safety testing, a lot of the E bike fires that have been happening in New York City happened because a lot of those batteries were bought like secondhand or they were not certified by like a third party safety industry, like UL certification. So I'm just trying to to emphasize that a lot of the fires that were caused by E bike batteries were because they were not tested or they were bought secondhand or charged improperly. So a lot of those batteries that were caused by the E bike fires, the city has taken steps to make E bike safety more rigorous and so that like people who use E bikes throughout the city are using safe bikes and safe technologies. With that said, in contrast, battery energy storage systems are different. They go through a lot of levels of scrutiny, especially in New York City. So I want to emphasize that, like best battery energy storage systems are very strenuously reviewed at the city level. And New York City has some of the most stringent regulations in the country. Battery energy storage systems in New York City have to go through the fire department in New York City as well as the Department of Buildings. So there are a lot of safety protocols. And then one other thing I want to mention is that there have been zero fires in New York City from a battery energy storage system. Again, there have been Zero fires in New York City. So sometimes we hear people talk about like, oh well, there is a fire in this location, but there have been zero in New York City because of the stringent safety requirements.
[00:08:41] Speaker A: Yeah, I appreciate always clearing that up. I think it's from a we act perspective. We always want to make sure we're taking in communities concerns about anything that's coming into their communities. But also we want to make sure we correct any information or misinformation that floats around. And sometimes I'm going to say that there are some people who are working against VA battery storage and who don't want to see it because of fossil fuel infrastructure that they want to keep going. So sometimes they do put out some of these kind of talking points for people to kind of take and grab and they kind of get out of control hands. So I'm glad you cleared that up. And so I think the next question that I have for you is thinking about Bess in terms of what we're talking about right now in this time of a lot of like energy justice, energy affordability, renewables, all of that. And how does BEST fit into that conversation?
[00:09:33] Speaker C: Yeah, so the way we see it is battery energy storage system. It has a ton of benefits and like you just said, and I'll touch upon energy justice, but BEST has a lot of benefits from a public health and environmental justice perspective. BESS can help lower greenhouse gas emissions and improve local air pollution, especially for disadvantaged communities, because it will help retire the city's peaker plants, which Yua was on the episode previously expanded upon that. So these peaker plants in the city and battery energy storage systems go hand in hand. And it's great that our episodes were aligned in that regard because a lot of what I'll say relates to what Yua said in the previous episode. So. So energy storage can help reduce the use of in city peaker plants, which are like y' all know and us said, are disproportionately located in environmental justice neighborhoods in New York City. These peaker plants are fossil fuel based. They emit a lot of chemicals, contribute to respiratory and asthma issues.
And it also helps because when peaker plants come online, it actually costs consumers a lot of money.
So consumers pay peaker plants to sit idle for most of the year and then when a peaker plant is needed at the very few instances in the year when it's needed during summer demand, they have to be run and they are used very inefficiently.
So BEST can help retire peaker plants. BEST can Also help lower utility bills for consumers, but by providing the grid with cheaper energy as well, especially during peak demand, because it'll store electricity when it's not needed as much and release it into the grid when it is needed. And I could stop there, but there's more, a few more benefits for BEST if you want me to expand upon it.
[00:11:37] Speaker B: Yeah, please keep going. I think that it's helpful. I think this is because again, this is relatively new technology and I think most people in their day to day hear more of the quote, unquote, like safety concerns that, as you've kind of shared, are not connected to BEST specifically. So hearing some of the pros I think is really good to help reshape the narrative of how beneficial battery energy storage systems or BEST can be for New Yorkers. So yeah, please continue.
[00:12:06] Speaker C: Okay, so Bess can also help with grid modernization. A lot of our electric grid, like throughout the country is super old.
And our grid has been built out according to what worked like decades and decades ago.
So for instance, the New York Independent System Operator, or niso, projects that New York City's electricity demand could increase by 50 to 90% over the next two decades. So as many people know, like electricity demand has been skyrocketing for the past several years. Like there are a lot more things that are turning electric, like electric vehicles, data centers require a lot of electricity. So our grid needs to be modernized to keep up with demand, but also to be resilient in the face of climate threats with extreme weather, stuff like that. So battery energy storage systems can help modernize our grid, and it can help modernize our grid at no cost to households. So utility upgrades, such as new substations and electrical feeders, that often results in higher bills for customers because the utility is basically like offsetting that cost to upgrade to the consumer.
By contrast, like community battery energy storage systems, that is developed independently of the utility and does not factor into rate calculation. So BEST can actually help with consumers utility bills. And again, like I said, BEST can help store electricity when it's needed most. And so that also helps consumers when they need to run their dishwasher or laundry during peak demand. BEST can also help with grid resiliency. Like I said, it provides on demand power and deliver it during peak demand and then during extreme weather events. BEST can also provide localized backup power.
So if there's another hurricane or extreme storm with a lot of rainfall and it hurts the power, BEST can help disperse that energy if the grid is facing a blackout or something.
So all this is to say is that there are a lot of benefits by having more battery energy storage throughout our state, our city, especially for environmental justice communities when it comes to retiring those fossil fuel based beaker plants. And the safety aspect of BESS always needs to be coupled with the consumer and the affordability piece, because those are all like intricately linked. And that's really why people care, is because they want to know it's safe, they want to know it will help their pocketbook and it's better for their health as well.
[00:14:54] Speaker B: I appreciate you covering those additional benefits because I think my takeaway from that list and to your point about relating it back to what most people care about in a day to day, that this technology is safe, that it's providing a financial benefit to them in terms of their utility bills. But the two aspects that I feel like you touched on really well is that clearly battery energy storage systems provide both a climate mitigation benefit and a climate resilience benefit. So not only is it helping to reduce emissions in terms of, like you said, capturing energy when it's being produced and being able to distribute it when it's most needed, but also addressing that resilience component like when we have storms and other other things that impact the grid, where there's reliability concerns, like the BEST systems can fill that need and help make sure that people have access to electricity when they need it in times of emergencies and other things. So I like that you kind of covered both ends of that.
A testament to the value of this technology. And with that, just to kind of start to look at what the future of that technology looks like and maybe even currently, I just want to give you a chance to talk more about how BEST is already being implemented in New York City. If there's existing projects that are built or projects that are being built, what kind of the landscape of the technology looks like in New York City right now?
[00:16:14] Speaker C: Yeah, so battery energy storage systems are being deployed throughout New York City. They've been. There are a lot of projects that have been online for a few years and actually NYSERDA has information online where you can go and basically see how many best projects are in each county throughout the state. So actually went on that before we started recording just to kind of get a sense of how many best projects are there in the city. And based on NYSERDA's online map, there is a total of 88 best projects in the city.
So that's a lot of projects. I'm not sure if all of them are online, but I do know that There are best projects in the city that have been in operation for a few years now. And I'll just, like, break it down.
Queens has 20 best projects. Brooklyn has also 20 projects. Staten island has 16, the Bronx has 13, and Manhattan has 19.
Again, if you're interested in learning more, I suggest going on nyserda's online website with all these projects and you can see, like, how many megawatts they are and whether they're officially online or still in the works. But all that is to say is there are best projects that are happening. They're being rolled out throughout the city.
I've actually been to a best site in East Williamsburg, and one thing I forgot to mention earlier was that these sites are also very quiet. So another thing that some anti Bess people will say is, like, oh, they're very noisy, but actually they're very quiet. And when I was at the best site in East Williamsburg, the noisiest part of the site was the truck traffic surrounding the Bess site because it was in an industrial area. But to go back to what you were saying, like the landscape of Bess, I did want to provide some context.
Another piece of the Bess context was a few years ago, the Adams administration actually rolled out a zoning proposal called City of Yes for Carbon Neutrality. That proposal was passed by the city council in 2023. So that zoning package actually updated our city zoning resolution to make it easier to sustainably retrofit buildings and make it easier to install renewable energy like rooftop solar and install solar canopies over parking, as well as addressing energy storage. So once that zoning package was passed, it allowed battery energy storage projects to be permitted as of right, quote, unquote. So as of right means that other battery energy storage projects going forward don't need to go through the Department of City Planning as long as they are at or below 10,000 square feet in residential districts. So that means that a lot of best projects are being rolled out in residential districts as long as they're below that square footage threshold. And I do want to emphasize that it is important to have battery energy projects in residential districts, not just industrial districts, because you need battery energy storage where demand is throughout the city and demand is in a lot of residential districts. So if we really want to help with making it easier for people to use their laundry and their AC unit during a peak demand period, we need battery energy storage throughout the city, not just industrial areas.
[00:19:45] Speaker A: That's awesome. I just learned so much in the few minutes that you just talked.
And I've also been to one that's an existing site before and one that's being built out. And the sound thing was one thing that did surprised me a lot. It is just the trucks and everyone around me. I think there was like a playground where kids were like screaming was much louder than the actual.
The site itself. And it's nice to hear that so many projects are going on throughout the city. And it seems like right now they're relatively equal in terms of some of the projects that are there, which is always a good thing to making sure that the right places can get this technology to use it in the way that you mentioned before. I guess I have one question a little bit about scaling this. There's some projects that are now. And you know, one thing that I learned too, that these systems can vary in size, which I think is actually a good thing compared to a super large peaker plant that really requires a lot of space, always an industrial area because, you know, obviously you don't want them in your community.
So what is this, you know, as we scale up this technology, what are some of the roadblocks or even opportunities that are coming up? Are there legislation that needs to happen or that's going on or is it. You mentioned City of. Yes. Carbon neutrality kind of work. So, like, what are some things that are going on in terms of trying to make sure we can scale this properly?
[00:21:10] Speaker C: Yeah. So I think the biggest issue challenge, I should say, in New York City is making sure that people are getting the right facts and understanding them and having that communicated to them in a way that is accessible to people who are not in the weeds of policy. Because as I'm sure you all know, we're in the policy world and sometimes we forget just we're talking if we need to talk to people who are not in that world. And that's totally okay. It's just about communication.
So I think the biggest thing is making sure people understand these systems, understand that they are safe, especially in New York City.
And sometimes, you know, it depends on the messenger, because I understand if you're concerned about a new technology, you might want to hear from the fire department. And they might be the best messengers because they know the protocols that these systems have to go through to be permitted, but also the protocols and the safety regulations that these systems go through even when they're online.
So the biggest thing I think is educating and communicating to residents that these systems are safe. And I think that requires a lot of different sectors to be aligned. Not just environmental and environmental justice groups, but also battery Energy storage developers, elected officials, fire department. Like, we all need to communicate in our own way to people who are next to these projects or who are like encountering. Encountering these projects. A lot of these projects are, like I said, not going through the public review process because they're under a certain square footage and city of yes allowed them to be quote, unquote, as of right. But again, like, having the facts, having it be communicated in multiple languages is super important because a lot of some of the challenges are certain communities who just don't want it next to their house, but it actually does help their residents and their community because it helps during peak demand.
[00:23:15] Speaker B: This is a common theme not only for this episode, but for all of our podcast episodes and to some extent why we cover the topics that we do and do it in the way that we do to make some of these issues that feel either really technical or really far removed more relatable and understandable, relating it back to people's everyday life. So we appreciate you being here to do exactly that. That's a part of why you're here, to help address that challenge. I know some of your expertise on this issue comes from the coalition that you lead around battery energy storage systems. So I wanted to give you a chance to talk a little bit about that. I imagine that this work of educating folks and helping them understand the opportunity and dispelling myths and some of that is tied up in that coalition, but hearing a little bit more about what some of the goals of the coalition are, who some of the players are in that space, maybe FDNY or other folks that you're kind of collaborating with to help move this technology forward, and maybe some folks that you're working against, maybe some of the folks that maybe don't want to see battery storage in New York City, but to just hear a little more about the coalition aspect of this work and kind of the work that you do there.
[00:24:33] Speaker C: Yeah. So at myLCV, given the work that we were doing, especially when it came to educational programs on battery energy storage system and other renewable energy policies, we realized it would be helpful to have a regular call with advocates, especially nonprofit advocates who are working in this space. So it's actually like not a formal coalition, but it is like what I'm calling a stakeholder check in on a monthly basis with advocates who are advocating in favor of battery energy storage. So that we're kind of just checking in, seeing what everyone's working on. There's a lot of different educational events, there's a lot of OP EDS and communication aspects that are being published. So it's really like to help get people on the same page, especially to align on messaging when people talk about battery energy storage. This is also a shout out. If you're interested in these calls, please contact me because I'd be happy to include you. It's really just to get everyone on the same page and to see if there are challenges that people are facing when it comes to battery energy storage. One thing I forgot to mention was the jobs component of battery energy storage. It will also help create jobs. And I think another aspect of when we're talking about these types of projects is if we can get labor unions or other folks who are working in that sector to see the benefits of battery energy storage as well and to communicate that component. That's also very important in the stakeholder calls. We also have tried to talk to labor unions and nonprofit groups, not just environmental groups like nylcv, but environmental justice and climate justice groups because there are so many different sectors. But again, this is like it's still a work in progress. And if there are other groups who are interested, I would be happy to include you all because it's not an exhaustive list. But the goal is to try to align on messaging and the work that we're all doing and to identify challenges going forward.
[00:26:42] Speaker A: I appreciate that. And pulling people together. I know in this space coalition that word can be a little tiring for some of us who are in many coalitions all the time. But bringing people together I think is really important. A diverse group of folks like you just mentioned is important, right? There's so many different elements to hear and there's so many different avenues people can take when it comes to scaling battery storage.
So I think one kind of final question as we kind of goes on this journey with everyone else around battery storage, are there any calls to action right now that you want to share for listeners?
[00:27:18] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, I think if there's. If you hear of any battery energy storage projects in the city, in your neighborhood, like, I really encourage you to one, if you're just not familiar with it, to learn about it. NYLCV has fact sheets on it that we've been trying to give to the public as well as elected officials who want to learn about these projects, if you support it, which I hope you do, to also contact your elected or your community board because it always helps to get residents to show support of renewable energy. And again, if you're interested in like one aspect of renewable energy, whether it's like the labor piece or the environmental justice piece. Like that all helps.
So really like getting more people in support of these these projects and to combat the misinformation, especially when battery energy storage is conflated with the E bike lithium ion battery fires, which are again different things, totally different regulations, stuff like that.
[00:28:18] Speaker B: Yeah, I appreciate you being here to provide so much information. I feel like even as someone who kind of does work in this energy space and environmental justice space, this information has been super helpful, unpacking all the benefits and helping to dispel some of those myths around some of the safety concerns and all those links and places of information that you mentioned. We'll make sure to include links in the show, notes for people to click on and explore more, including the nice sort of page with the different sites so folks can go on there and look and see what projects are hopefully in their burrow at the very least, maybe even in their respective neighborhoods. I know it's always exciting when you hear about a new technology and learn that it's happening right in your neighborhood.
So we super appreciate you being on.
[00:29:05] Speaker C: Yeah, thanks so much for having me. Really appreciated talking to y' all and yeah, always look forward to working with y' all because there's so much overlap on what we do. But again, feel free to contact me if you're listening and are interested in battery energy storage because I would be happy to connect and and talk more about it.
[00:29:33] Speaker B: Thanks for listening.
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[email protected] I also want to
[00:29:48] Speaker A: remind folks about Uptown Chats hotline where listeners can call in with questions they have about climate environmental justice. If you got a question, call 877-Uptown 6. That's 877-878-6966.
[00:30:01] Speaker B: Give us a call and check out REACT on Facebook @react4ej. That's W E A C T F O R E J on Instagram, Blue sky and YouTube at react4ej. That's W E A C T number 4ej. And check out our website weact.org for more information about environmental justice.
[00:30:23] Speaker A: Until next time.
[00:30:23] Speaker B: Next time.
[00:30:24] Speaker A: Oh jinx, Jinx.
[00:30:31] Speaker B: Sam.
